Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

On the subject of corpse runs, do you think it would be better to get rid of them and just incur XP loss? I do think that there is an "adventure" component of corpse runs that provides a different kind of interactive gameplay from the core gameplay loop. It encourages me to dungeon crawl in a way that mitigates the challenge of a potential corpse run - going slower through the dungeon and taking more care to pay attention to turns and waymarks.

I noticed that despite this test being longer, this thread seemed more dead this time around.

They're releasing their data, and the numbers dropped off a fucking cliff. I know someone will just say "people are saving it for later when it actually matters," but I don't buy it.

Gravel said:

I noticed that despite this test being longer, this thread seemed more dead this time around.

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Yeah, because we were all playing the game!

Gravel said:

They're releasing their data, and the numbers dropped off a fucking cliff. I know someone will just say "people are saving it for later when it actually matters," but I don't buy it.

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Shawn said the likely explanation is that during the last test, there were a lot of people who had never heard of the game who tried it for the first time, saw how dark everything was at night or that they had to do a corpse run and quickly nope'd out and never came back. This test was mostly returning players who like the game. Honestly though, even if they only get 4,000 subscribers, that's enough to maintain a couple people full-time and the rest of the team part time or on-assignment, which would keep the development pace of what they have right now.

Gravel said:

I noticed that despite this test being longer, this thread seemed more dead this time around.

They're releasing their data, and the numbers dropped off a fucking cliff. I know someone will just say "people are saving it for later when it actually matters," but I don't buy it.

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The number of level 1-3 toons in the early hours (4 or so) of the playtest opening were shocking. We’re talking numbers measured in the dozens, not hundreds.

What i find really wild is that nobody is talking about how many players this thing is gonna shed as soon as you ask some of these basement degens to pay a sub. Especially considering EA won’t launch on Steam.

Just for some perspective, 3000 subs for 6 months is about a quarter million dollars. I think I heard the team is over 30 individuals at this point.

Kriptini said:

Shawn said the likely explanation is that during the last test, there were a lot of people who had never heard of the game who tried it for the first time, saw how dark everything was at night or that they had to do a corpse run and quickly nope'd out and never came back. This test was mostly returning players who like the game.

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Who could’ve seen that coming?

The light source and spellbook systems are going decimate (by the proper definition) the potential audience for this game, and they add almost nothing to the game experience.

I had the stream on briefly, and saw the numbers. Someone asked about subscribers and Shawn said that basically each 1k subs would be about 1 employee. So they're looking at 2-3 employees (not sure if this is in addition to their core team or what though).

Considering EA will launch incredibly incomplete (races and classes missing, many zones, etc), that doesn't bode well. I know they like to be positive about the whole thing, but considering Q1 2026 is within the next 4-6 months, I just don't see how this game stays afloat.

When people realize that they're going to level from 20-50 all in Fallen Pass, they're going to wonder what they're paying $15 a month for.

Kriptini said:

On the subject of corpse runs, do you think it would be better to get rid of them and just incur XP loss? I do think that there is an "adventure" component of corpse runs that provides a different kind of interactive gameplay from the core gameplay loop. It encourages me to dungeon crawl in a way that mitigates the challenge of a potential corpse run - going slower through the dungeon and taking more care to pay attention to turns and waymarks.

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Elden Ring handles punishment masterfully because it's simple, immediate, and meaningful. You make a mistake, you pay a clear cost, and then you get the chance to recover and continue. That's risk players can internalize, learn from, and adapt to. By contrast, mechanics like instant EXP loss, mandatory corpse runs, or other artificially imposed penalties are not "adventure" or "challenge", IMO. They're tedium dressed up as gameplay. They don't teach you anything about the systems, the environment, or the player's own skill. They just force you to move slower, worry more, and repeat the same grind until you eventually reach a point where you no longer have to pay the "tedium tax". True engagement comes from letting players fail, learn, and adapt. Not taxing them with hours of meaningless busywork just to reach the point where the mechanics stop being a chore - whether because you've attempted enough times, acquired sufficient gear, or simply memorized the rote steps.

This kind of punishment discourages experimentation and discovery. It pushes players into overly cautious behavior rather than letting them naturally engage with the game world. It doesn't create meaningful tension/friction, it just creates frustration disguised as consequence. True risk and engagement come from clear, recoverable failure, where the player's learning curve is the reward, not the act of suffering through hours of arbitrary busywork. Anything beyond that - corpse runs, punitive XP penalties, etc. isn't challenge. It's just an obstacle course designed to make the player jump through hoops until the game eventually stops punishing them.

I'm not opposed to EXP penalties, gear penalties, etc. No penalty is off my table, really. I think death should sting in most cases. But there are a million better ways to do it than "the EQ way".

yea i have a hard time participating in timed tests. i thought i'd play a lot t his week but was busy and the time i had was either rimworld odysey or poe league. but in a week or two i'll wish i could play it. when it's early access i'll play it more...maybe largely due to a feel of consistancy.

Kirun said:

Elden Ring handles punishment masterfully because it's simple, immediate, and meaningful. You make a mistake, you pay a clear cost, and then you get the chance to recover and continue. That's risk players can internalize, learn from, and adapt to. By contrast, mechanics like instant EXP loss, mandatory corpse runs, or other artificially imposed penalties are not "adventure" or "challenge", IMO. They're tedium dressed up as gameplay. They don't teach you anything about the systems, the environment, or the player's own skill. They just force you to move slower, worry more, and repeat the same grind until you eventually reach a point where you no longer have to pay the "tedium tax". True engagement comes from letting players fail, learn, and adapt. Not taxing them with hours of meaningless busywork just to reach the point where the mechanics stop being a chore - whether because you've attempted enough times, acquired sufficient gear, or simply memorized the rote steps.

This kind of punishment discourages experimentation and discovery. It pushes players into overly cautious behavior rather than letting them naturally engage with the game world. It doesn't create meaningful tension/friction, it just creates frustration disguised as consequence. True risk and engagement come from clear, recoverable failure, where the player's learning curve is the reward, not the act of suffering through hours of arbitrary busywork. Anything beyond that - corpse runs, punitive XP penalties, etc. isn't challenge. It's just an obstacle course designed to make the player jump through hoops until the game eventually stops punishing them.

I'm not opposed to EXP penalties, gear penalties, etc. No penalty is off my table, really. I think death should sting in most cases. But there are a million better ways to do it than "the EQ way".

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The same could be said for corpse runs. It's all perspective. Now, they could do away with it and the spellbook BS and it would not hurt their gameplay loop. In fact, I think they will cave knowing those two things aside from lighting will add potentially thousands of more users.

vegetoeeVegetoee said:

The same could be said for corpse runs. It's all perspective. Now, they could do away with it and the spellbook BS and it would not hurt their gameplay loop. In fact, I think they will cave knowing those two things aside from lighting will add potentially thousands of more users.

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Except Elden Ring doesn't force you to strip your character of all their tools and resources, then make you painfully retrace your steps to recover a lost corpse. You lose your accumulated risk once, and then you get a chance to redeem yourself without being burdened by artificial tedium. Corpse runs in the old MMO sense aren't some noble rite of passage. They're always a clunky, tedium-filled barrier that punishes curiosity, slows learning, and rewards rote repetition over meaningful skill or decision-making.

Kirun said:

Elden Ring handles punishment masterfully because it's simple, immediate, and meaningful. You make a mistake, you pay a clear cost, and then you get the chance to recover and continue. That's risk players can internalize, learn from, and adapt to. By contrast, mechanics like instant EXP loss, mandatory corpse runs, or other artificially imposed penalties are not "adventure" or "challenge", IMO. They're tedium dressed up as gameplay. They don't teach you anything about the systems, the environment, or the player's own skill. They just force you to move slower, worry more, and repeat the same grind until you eventually reach a point where you no longer have to pay the "tedium tax". True engagement comes from letting players fail, learn, and adapt. Not taxing them with hours of meaningless busywork just to reach the point where the mechanics stop being a chore - whether because you've attempted enough times, acquired sufficient gear, or simply memorized the rote steps.

This kind of punishment discourages experimentation and discovery. It pushes players into overly cautious behavior rather than letting them naturally engage with the game world. It doesn't create meaningful tension/friction, it just creates frustration disguised as consequence. True risk and engagement come from clear, recoverable failure, where the player's learning curve is the reward, not the act of suffering through hours of arbitrary busywork. Anything beyond that - corpse runs, punitive XP penalties, etc. isn't challenge. It's just an obstacle course designed to make the player jump through hoops until the game eventually stops punishing them.

I'm not opposed to EXP penalties, gear penalties, etc. No penalty is off my table, really. I think death should sting in most cases. But there are a million better ways to do it than "the EQ way".

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I think the counter to what you're talking about is that Elden Ring's combat is difficult, M&M's is not. Elden Ring is designed in a way where the intention is to present a player with difficult challenges that take lots of repetition to eventually surpass. In a system like that, death can't sting too much because you are expected to die a lot.

Contrast that with M&M where the combat is not intended to be difficult. It's slow paced and laid back to give players more opportunity to chat instead of being focused on performing in combat. But in order to keep combat engaging enough, there needs to be a significant penalty associated with it. I think there's a valid argument that having to make the run back to the dungeon is enough of a penalty on its own without needing to recover a corpse, but I think the mechanics of a corpse run do meaningfully freshen up your gameplay if you do have to make one. I do hear what you're saying about "tools" though. Maybe corpses shouldn't drop items but instead just drop a ton of XP, and you can recover a large majority of that XP through recovering your corpse?

My issue with corpse runs is it actively discourages risk taking. It makes your playerbase grind out boring ass blue mobs because no one wants to waste an hour trying to rebreak into a zone that they were only able to do in the first place fully geared. If you're camping a new dungeon and find a red con boss, you're not going to go out on a limb to try to take it out, you're going to say fuck it and kill the stuff you know won't wipe you.

Hell, it even discourages exploration. Open world town of hostiles, even if they're green, that looks super cool? Yeah, fuck off, you go in there and die and you're fucked. Better to just stick to the path everyone else is on.

Kriptini said:

I think the counter to what you're talking about is that Elden Ring's combat is difficult, M&M's is not. Elden Ring is designed in a way where the intention is to present a player with difficult challenges that take lots of repetition to eventually surpass. In a system like that, death can't sting too much because you are expected to die a lot.

Contrast that with M&M where the combat is not intended to be difficult. It's slow paced and laid back to give players more opportunity to chat instead of being focused on performing in combat. But in order to keep combat engaging enough, there needs to be a significant penalty associated with it. I think there's a valid argument that having to make the run back to the dungeon is enough of a penalty on its own without needing to recover a corpse, but I think the mechanics of a corpse run do meaningfully freshen up your gameplay if you do have to make one. I do hear what you're saying about "tools" though. Maybe corpses shouldn't drop items but instead just drop a ton of XP, and you can recover a large majority of that XP through recovering your corpse?

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I get the contrast you're trying to draw, but I think it highlights the real design problem. If the combat itself isn't meant to be mechanically challenging or engaging, then slapping heavy-handed penalties like corpse runs on top isn’t "freshening up" gameplay. It's just papering over shallow systems with artificial consequence - aka tedium. It adds nothing to engage the playerbase, it's just forcing friction.

Elden Ring works because the moment-to-moment gameplay is inherently engaging. Death there is an expected part of the loop, so the penalty can be "lighter" while still meaningful. In M&M, if combat is deliberately slow and casual to create social breathing room, then tedious death penalties shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting for tension. If you're relying on punishment to make otherwise bland combat feel "engaging," that's a sign the underlying systems aren't pulling their weight.

And making corpses drop XP that you have to recover isn't really a fix. It's just moving the penalty around. You're still discouraging experimentation and still shackling players to tedium loops. If the core loop isn't compelling enough without a "punishment tax", the answer isn't "make the tax sting in a different way." It's "make the loop actually fun to engage with in the first place."

Gravel said:

Hell, it even discourages exploration. Open world town of hostiles, even if they're green, that looks super cool? Yeah, fuck off, you go in there and die and you're fucked. Better to just stick to the path everyone else is on.

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This is exactly why everybody was in the same 2-4 dungeons throughout EQ.

Gravel said:

I noticed that despite this test being longer, this thread seemed more dead this time around.

They're releasing their data, and the numbers dropped off a fucking cliff. I know someone will just say "people are saving it for later when it actually matters," but I don't buy it.

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Where is the data posted?

Kirun said:

And making corpses drop XP that you have to recover isn't really a fix. It's just moving the penalty around. You're still discouraging experimentation and still shackling players to tedium loops. If the core loop isn't compelling enough without a "punishment tax", the answer isn't "make the tax sting in a different way." It's "make the loop actually fun to engage with in the first place."

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Maybe this is where we differ, because I think that the core loop is fun to engage with already.

Classic EverQuest groups that wiped, and were a bunch of randoms to begin with, or even loose friendships - usually meant the death of the party/group. Yes, good friends, guildies (most of the time) or preorganized groups like TLP's have, would sometimes be different. But the average group wiping meant that you're going to spend the next 30 minutes to an hour getting your corpse and hopefully, your group had a 96'er or else you'd be looking for that too. That was never "fun" and the last thing I gave two flying fucks about was making friends at that point. The necro summoning you? The cleric that came to rez you? They might be friends, but you're still going to tip them. Ya, sure. Thats the kind of socializing I want. /sarcasm

Pantheon's version, you're still fighting back too your damn corpse so you can get the coin and exp. Fucking awful to get all the way into Goblin Caves and all of a sudden you go from fighting light blue goblins, spiders and bats to fighting yellow cons and red cons. "DUG TOO DEEP" line. The rare in the back of that little dead end with the Spiders that are light blue at the entrance of it are lvl 9 - cool - fits the rest in the area. The spiders that LOOK THE EXACT SAME right behind them? level ~15 with a rare possibly in tow thats even higher. Terrible fucking design that 100% meant that as an exploration consequence, your lvl 8-11 party is fucking DEAD. Now you're fighting back to that area to get your corpse that has all your coin on it, and the pittance of exp. But at least you can fight back, I guess? ... But now that we're back in camp? Guess what we're going to do? Break up and go our separate ways.

Wiping is very likely the key factor in why the group is breaking apart in these situations. So how excited do you think I, or other players are, to be stuck with the morons that got us wiped in the first place after we said.. "dont pull those spiders!" for another hour, killing lower end NPC's that give little exp but will attack on sight. Or better yet, sitting at the zone line of a zone waiting on the <insert retrieval class> to bring your corpse up there. TONS OF FUN. SO IMMERSED WITH THE GAME WORLD.

Hell, you want a good punishment for dying ratio? Fuck corpse retrieval - fighting back through the same trash to get BACK to the camp you just died at is more than enough "punishment." Exp penalties, debts, corpses, all of that shit is just awful in a game and serves almost no fucking purpose. Hell, this is even POE 2's death punishment up to a certain level.

I'm not saying strip away any and every nuisance in an MMO. Hell, at some point - if we keep stripping things away - we have to ask "Well whats the point of levels other than tedium?" Because after playing for about 10 minutes, I know how to use my fucking skills.