Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Couple questions for folks who have played a bunch recently:

How are the priests healing effectiveness comparing to each other these days?

Is charm as OP as everyone whines about?

The Wizard melee stuff seems to be real controversial. Are they sticking with that?

Is there a global chat channel? It’s been a while and i can’t recall.

Quaid said:

Couple questions for folks who have played a bunch recently:

How are the priests healing effectiveness comparing to each other these days?

Is charm as OP as everyone whines about?

The Wizard melee stuff seems to be real controversial. Are they sticking with that?

Is there a global chat channel? It’s been a while and i can’t recall.

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Can you imagine the grown man temper tantrums if charm WASN’T OP?!

Seal of Magic is controversial because people think a wizard melee attacking is a problem. Fully stacked it’s a 20% magic damage buff. Absolutely worth doing when the name of the game for wiz is mana efficiency and last hitting for mana return.

It doesn’t take that long to stack, and if you really want to min/max you can sit between melee attacks to get the mana ticks. Sitting between attacks does feel bad, but right now it seems the mana-ticks just check whether you’re sitting when the tick happens, so it’s worth it to press Q to get an auto attack, press X to sit, rinse repeat. I imagine this will be changed, but we’ll see.

Nothing revolutionary here - wizard converts mana bar to damage on mobs. You’ve theoretically got X mana for Y damage. Attacking and stacking Seal of Magic is (1.2)Y damage. It makes your mana more efficient, so worth it imo. With dual wield at 20, a couple of INT daggers would probably get Seal stacked incredibly quick.

There are some outspoken dissenters on the discord, but I’m not sure what they want. Just remove seal so then they can feel good about Nuke -> sit -> stand -> nuke -> sit. They want to get rid of mana return on Arcane Infusion as well, since “other people can fuck up your mana return by doing too much dmg while you’re casting your execute-nuke.”

The core mechanics of skill expression (executes and mana return) and mana efficiency (attacking for +dmg, more dmg per mana seal of magic) seem anathema to some of these folks.

Charm felt good on enchanter. Could charm something, buff it with haste and stength, then just send it in and enfeeble the target. Pet wins, keep doing this until pet is about to die -> kill pet, start over. With a healer you just PBAOE stun pet when it breaks, recharm and keep going. I plan to have an alt enchanter that my brother will play Druid duo with. Thorns, root, beast charm, heals. Gonna make a perfect combo.

edit: priest healing effectiveness - my brother played cleric in the last play test, so we looked into efficiency and the other classes. Seems like they all have a big efficient heal of the same mana cost and healing potency. My brother got to 15 so we were looking at level 12 spells.

Seems like they all have a 140 potency heal for 60 mana. Cleric does 4 second cast, then the heal is delayed 6 seconds. Ten seconds for the 140 potency. Druid heals 70 then gets two 35 ticks, so from the time the 70 hits, 12 more seconds before the full 140 is realized. Shaman does a regeneration with 35 per tick for 4 ticks, 24 seconds to realize the 140 health value. This is their most efficient heal, all can cast their less efficient heal while the more efficient one is doing its thing. Seems balanced, they all do the same thing different way.

Valorath said:

Seal of Magic is controversial because people think a wizard melee attacking is a problem. Fully stacked it’s a 20% magic damage buff. Absolutely worth doing when the name of the game for wiz is mana efficiency and last hitting for mana return.

It doesn’t take that long to stack, and if you really want to min/max you can sit between melee attacks to get the mana ticks. Sitting between attacks does feel bad, but right now it seems the mana-ticks just check whether you’re sitting when the tick happens, so it’s worth it to press Q to get an auto attack, press X to sit, rinse repeat. I imagine this will be changed, but we’ll see.

Nothing revolutionary here - wizard converts mana bar to damage on mobs. You’ve theoretically got X mana for Y damage. Attacking and stacking Seal of Magic is (1.2)Y damage. It makes your mana more efficient, so worth it imo. With dual wield at 20, a couple of INT daggers would probably get Seal stacked incredibly quick.

There are some outspoken dissenters on the discord, but I’m not sure what they want. Just remove seal so then they can feel good about Nuke -> sit -> stand -> nuke -> sit. They want to get rid of mana return on Arcane Infusion as well, since “other people can fuck up your mana return by doing too much dmg while you’re casting your execute-nuke.”

The core mechanics of skill expression (executes and mana return) and mana efficiency (attacking for +dmg, more dmg per mana seal of magic) seem anathema to some of these folks.

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It feels dumb because they literally made up a new class specifically for people who wanted to play a melee wizard.

If Gandalf can swing a sword I think you can too.

Spellblade is just a proc-based melee class that amps everyone else’s magic damage.

Valorath said:

If Gandalf can swing a sword I think you can too.

Spellblade is just a proc-based melee class that amps everyone else’s magic damage.

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They really glommed onto that idea for wiz and don't want to let it go. That said, they don't seem to be happy about actually needing you to run in and melee too much. There's been talk about having the offhad stave be a ranged attack of some sort. But none of that has been implemented yet.

Here’s a an idea for a wizard passive:

Concentrate Forcefully: stand still while targeting an enemy for 12 seconds, after which your magic damage is amplified by 20% on target. (Don’t hit tab)

Now players don’t have to aUtO aTtAcK iN MeLeE rANgE and be in such danger, or away from their preferred /sit location.

Valorath said:

Here’s a an idea for a wizard passive:

Concentrate Forcefully: stand still while targeting an enemy for 12 seconds, after which your magic damage is amplified by 20% on target. (Don’t hit tab)

Now players don’t have to aUtO aTtAcK iN MeLeE rANgE and be in such danger, or away from their preferred /sit location.

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Ya I've gotta admit, I'd very much prefer to not have to engage in melee combat, which is why I've always gravitated toward healers and casters. I find melee combat in EQ/MnM to be incredibly floaty and weird feeling. Just not a fan in the slightest. It'd be real nice if there were wands similar to WoW so casters could just have ranged auto attacks. Make them bolts so the casters has to be aware of positioning, and Bob's your uncle. Maybe even make it a 'buff' that you cast on your weapon that turns it into a ranged weapon, but the buff reduces your atk speed a bit. Wanna melee? Cool, you don't need to debuff your atk speed and can apply Seal of Magic stacks faster. Don't wanna? Ok just buff your melee weapon giving it ranged attacks and deal with the consequences of that choice. I have no idea if this is possible from a coding perspective because I am a garden variety retard.

Other than that I love the sound of the mana return on killing blow. The goal SHOULD be to beclown the Rogue with a well timed FIREBALL.

The sitting between auto attacks for med ticks sounds like pure fucking herpes.

Quaid said:

similar to WoW

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Quaid said:

Other than that I love the sound of the mana return on killing blow. The goal SHOULD be to beclown the Rogue with a well timed FIREBALL.

The sitting between auto attacks for med ticks sounds like pure fucking herpes.

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Sitting between autos is lame and I expect that will be changed. Degen play based on current mechanics.

Mana return on executes feels great - execute perfectly and get 100% mana back. Overkill, get a little less based on overkill amount. Cast a moment too early and you land the full damage nuke but leave the enemy with a sliver of health left that gets finished by one or two autos, and you’re out all the mana. It isn’t much in the way of skill expression , but it is something. “This nuke literally cost me nothing because I timed it perfectly.”

I played paladin in EQ, my main exposure to wizards in EQ was being happy to be in their group in raid so I got the exp from raid mobs. So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game? If they’re just good cause their mana/damage efficiency + mana regen are better than other casters, what differentiates one wizard from another?

Are we really upset that wiz is more than sit -> med -> stand -> nuke -> sit -> med?

Valorath said:

So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game?

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The same way everyone expresses "skill" in this type of game

By sitting in your chair and logging in for more hours than the other guys

Valorath said:

Sitting between autos is lame and I expect that will be changed. Degen play based on current mechanics.

Mana return on executes feels great - execute perfectly and get 100% mana back. Overkill, get a little less based on overkill amount. Cast a moment too early and you land the full damage nuke but leave the enemy with a sliver of health left that gets finished by one or two autos, and you’re out all the mana. It isn’t much in the way of skill expression , but it is something. “This nuke literally cost me nothing because I timed it perfectly.”

I played paladin in EQ, my main exposure to wizards in EQ was being happy to be in their group in raid so I got the exp from raid mobs. So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game? If they’re just good cause their mana/damage efficiency + mana regen are better than other casters, what differentiates one wizard from another?

Are we really upset that wiz is more than sit -> med -> stand -> nuke -> sit -> med?

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I doubt you'd hear about blowback from potential Wizards if they could auto attack from range to apply stacks. It's getting into melee range and attacking that's unappealing. Some find it unappealing gameplay in the same way others find sit->cast unappealing, and there's nothing skill based about either. These games have always been more about preparation, knowledge, and situational awareness than anything else.

The best wizards on Quarm weave in Mana Robe clicks and navigate the GCD in ways I'm not fully educated on, but our best DPS wizards parse 25% higher than our worst ones. There's definitely more to it there than sit->cast.

Valorath said:

Sitting between autos is lame and I expect that will be changed. Degen play based on current mechanics.

Mana return on executes feels great - execute perfectly and get 100% mana back. Overkill, get a little less based on overkill amount. Cast a moment too early and you land the full damage nuke but leave the enemy with a sliver of health left that gets finished by one or two autos, and you’re out all the mana. It isn’t much in the way of skill expression , but it is something. “This nuke literally cost me nothing because I timed it perfectly.”

I played paladin in EQ, my main exposure to wizards in EQ was being happy to be in their group in raid so I got the exp from raid mobs. So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game? If they’re just good cause their mana/damage efficiency + mana regen are better than other casters, what differentiates one wizard from another?

Are we really upset that wiz is more than sit -> med -> stand -> nuke -> sit -> med?

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Some of the grump seems to be a disconnect in class identity. There's a segment that want eg Raistlin. A frail ass wizard who drops huge nukes then goes back to coughing blood. What they're getting is Gandalf wading into mobs hacking away with a sword with some occasional flashes of magic.

I am drunk so hear me out here, not trying to be an addhole.

if the choice is between Gandalf melee and Raistiln coughing blood while his warrior brother assures everyone it’s ok man he’s good, not evil, he’s strong boy plz help him …. ? I dunno man.

Y’all can sit? I’ll play the game and do the things and be efficient.

cast fire spell
/em coughs blood to handkerchief
/sit
/cough miserably while caramon plays mother

is it controversial to have a wizard do something other than nuke -> sit -> nuke?

I’m honestly curious, do people just want to nuke sit nuke? Is that fun? I guess if your goal is to be “best dps” while also “most afk,” that’ll work. Is that what wizard was in EQ? And was that fun?

Valorath said:

I am drunk so hear me out here, not trying to be an addhole.

if the choice is between Gandalf melee and Raistiln coughing blood while his warrior brother assures everyone it’s ok man he’s good, not evil, he’s strong boy plz help him …. ? I dunno man.

Y’all can sit? I’ll play the game and do the things and be efficient.

cast fire spell
/em coughs blood to handkerchief
/sit
/cough miserably while caramon plays mother

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But like... why? How is hitting /assist and then shuffling your melee character over to the current target and hitting auto attack, then smashing your 'big punch' or 'hard stab' on cooldown 'playing the game' and 'doing the things' more than what a nuker or healer is doing? A nuker is assisting too, but they're watching MOB health bars and timing their attacks in a more reactive style of play. Yes they're sitting and watching, looking for changing conditions. What is inherently more engaging about pro-actively moving and auto attacking? Some folks like surveying the battle and making fewer but larger decisions, rather than many smaller less impactful decisions. They're not engaged less, just differently.

The majority of the spells/abilities of a Wizard are setup for distance combat. The dual wield and seal of magic just seems like some short sighted "Hey! Wouldnt this be neat!" kind of addition to the Wizard to make them more active. Valorath - I get that you understand and dont see anything wrong with their "vision" of the Wizard. But it really does just come off as just poorly thought out implementation of a skill set that really does belong to another class.

If I was trying to do something interesting with the Wizard's kit - I would maybe have a haste and burn component to spells. Cast the spell once and your next cast does 7% more damage and gains 10% spell haste. Stacking up to three times. Wizards are generally element locked because of resistances, so this capitalizes on it. This also gives the Wizard the option to use a spell line one tier lower if pulls are faster. Or blow his fucking load with his newest big bertha spell if shit is going to hell in a hand basket at camp.

Last hitting for mana refund isnt a bad idea. I'm not averse to burn phase mechanics on classes.

I'm under the impression that they are going to release a new patch that we'll end up getting info about here in the next week or two (maybe?). Wish I had alpha access to play with Hekotat and peeps, but since I dont - I'm hoping one of you will give us some patch notes.

Daidraco said:

The majority of the spells/abilities of a Wizard are setup for distance combat. The dual wield and seal of magic just seems like some short sighted "Hey! Wouldnt this be neat!" kind of addition to the Wizard to make them more active. Valorath - I get that you understand and dont see anything wrong with their "vision" of the Wizard. But it really does just come off as just poorly thought out implementation of a skill set that really does belong to another class.

If I was trying to do something interesting with the Wizard's kit - I would maybe have a haste and burn component to spells. Cast the spell once and your next cast does 7% more damage and gains 10% spell haste. Stacking up to three times. Wizards are generally element locked because of resistances, so this capitalizes on it. This also gives the Wizard the option to use a spell line one tier lower if pulls are faster. Or blow his fucking load with his newest big bertha spell if shit is going to hell in a hand basket at camp.

Last hitting for mana refund isnt a bad idea. I'm not averse to burn phase mechanics on classes.

I'm under the impression that they are going to release a new patch that we'll end up getting info about here in the next week or two (maybe?). Wish I had alpha access to play with Hekotat and peeps, but since I dont - I'm hoping one of you will give us some patch notes.

Click to expand...

I could even see like a spell that was a kind of 'boomerang' blink then a melee strike ability that applies your Seal of Magic stacks. You cast boomerang, you blink to the target, you spam your melee strike quickly to generate +spell dmg stacks, then after a set time the boomerang spell blinks you back, and you start blastin'.

Would be fun.

Kithani said:

The same way everyone expresses "skill" in this type of game

By sitting in your chair and logging in for more hours than the other guys

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Gotcha. So there's no skill in this game, nothing to differentiate one player from another. /played = power. That's totally the type of game I want to pay a monthly sub for and engage in daily. As long as my time played is equal to theirs, I'll be equally as good. Fuck yea. Nothing could be more satisfying.

Hopefully I can just come home from work, /login, then if I can’t get a group I’ll just /exp. As long as i /spend (enough time) I’ll be as good as everyone else.