NBA 2013?14 Season

popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Slaythe_sl said:
Did Jordan leave the Bulls? He played next to a hall of famer.
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Jordan made Pippen much, much better. I was a huge Pippen fan growing up, but there's no way in hell Pippen is a hall of famer if he isn't made better as a player by Jordan, and on a perennial championship team due in largest part to Jordan. If Pippen is drafted to some small market, shit team without the greatest player ever pushing everyone in practice ever day, he ends his career an all-star, but not a hall of famer. Jordan made people better individually and translates that into better teams. Does Lebron do that?

But, yes, thanks for confirming the point that it's a team sport. That's why Jordan was the greatest and Lebron shouldn't even be in the conversation. Yeah, if you stack the deck Lebron will win a few, but that doesn't mean he's beating the odds.

I'm confused, though. First you mention the Cavs went from one of the best teams (de-fucking-betable) with Lebron to one of the worst when he left. Then you point out how little one player has to do with a team winning as a whole? Make up your mind?
 
Drakurii

Drakurii

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Djay_sl said:
Hate on his character all you want, but he's one of the best basketball players ever.
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LeBron has had the luxury of playing in a weak ass eastern conference his entire career, had he played during the Anthony Mason/Charles Oakley Knicks, Bad Boy Pistons, or Bird Celtics era, he woulda got his shit pushed in. Bill Laimbeer would have slapped him silly.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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popsicledeath_sl said:
Jordan made Pippen much, much better. I was a huge Pippen fan growing up, but there's no way in hell Pippen is a hall of famer if he isn't made better as a player by Jordan, and on a perennial championship team due in largest part to Jordan. If Pippen is drafted to some small market, shit team without the greatest player ever pushing everyone in practice ever day, he ends his career an all-star, but not a hall of famer. Jordan made people better individually and translates that into better teams. Does Lebron do that?

But, yes, thanks for confirming the point that it's a team sport. That's why Jordan was the greatest and Lebron shouldn't even be in the conversation. Yeah, if you stack the deck Lebron will win a few, but that doesn't mean he's beating the odds.

I'm confused, though. First you mention the Cavs went from one of the best teams (de-fucking-betable) with Lebron to one of the worst when he left. Then you point out how little one player has to do with a team winning as a whole? Make up your mind?
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You're ignoring what Pippen did without Jordan, which was lead a team to one call from the east finals. Is that a championship? No, but Pippen took the same team they had the previous year, minus Jordan, to the 5th best record in the league and a playoff series win. You lose this argument.

You do make a point with the Cavs talk. Part of it is building shooters around LeBron. Part of it was Mo Williams really playing out of his mind for one year. But mostly it's just more evidence for how good James is.

Drakurii_sl said:
LeBron has had the luxury of playing in a weak ass eastern conference his entire career, had he played during the Anthony Mason/Charles Oakley Knicks, Bad Boy Pistons, or Bird Celtics era, he woulda got his shit pushed in. Bill Laimbeer would have slapped him silly.
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This take is just stubborn, man. LeBron is probably the most physically gifted player in the history of the league. And let's say you're even right, that his production dips a bit because the game is more physical (although I'm not really sure how this impacts his game...he's a great shooter, rebounder, passer and defender today), it would have to dip significantly for to notstillbe considered an all time great.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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The Cavs team wasn't great, but they had some quality role players outside of Lebron and calling it the same team just missing the 1 guy just isn't accurate. They were also waaay worse than the Bulls to begin with so that Bulls team going to the second round of the playoffs isn't that surprising.

Lebron is one of the most physically gifted humans to ever exist, which is where most of his credit comes from. What he's capable of and what he's done just don't match up
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Ambiturner_sl said:
The Cavs team wasn't great, but they had some quality role players outside of Lebron and calling it the same team just missing the 1 guy just isn't accurate. They were also waaay worse than the Bulls to begin with so that Bulls team going to the second round of the playoffs isn't that surprising.

Lebron is one of the most physically gifted humans to ever exist, which is where most of his credit comes from. What he's capable of and what he's done just don't match up
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There are two points being made by my last couple points. 1) Pippen was really, really good (in response to the dude who said there was no way he has the same career without playing next to Jordan and 2) LeBron being great (and the before/after of the Cavs adding to that). Neither have anything to do with one another, really.
 
Araxen

Araxen

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If Jordan didn't take off for Baseball the Bulls would have at least tied the Celtics record of most consecutive NBA Championships. That's how good that Bulls team was in a era with a much tougher Eastern Conference.
 
E

EmiliaEQ_sl

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popsicledeath_sl said:
Jordan made Pippen much, much better
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I started watching basketball in 90 when i was 12 and have kept doing so for a long long time. The best athlete i have seen in the last 20 years is Lebron, nothing even comes close.
MJ was amazing but Lebron is better, much much better, everything MJ did, Lebron can do it better. Pass Rebound Defend Shoot, just name it, he can do it better.

However what made Jordan N?1 player i have seen was his attitude :Win or die trying.

Having talent (Grant, Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Paxson) helps, but it's all about the attitude. "Not showing up" "Not trying" was out of the question with Jordan.
He made you better, he made you try, he made you fight. Do you remember Longley & Wennington ? Fighting vs Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, and not giving up ?
Steve Kerr Hits Game Winner For the Bulls - YouTube
 
Djay

Djay

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Starting to feel like everyone is doing a parody of Skip and Stephen A in here with all of this hyperbole.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Slaythe_sl said:
You're ignoring what Pippen did without Jordan, which was lead a team to one call from the east finals. Is that a championship? No, but Pippen took the same team they had the previous year, minus Jordan, to the 5th best record in the league and a playoff series win. You lose this argument.
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Jordan played a huge role in shaping who Pippen was as a player and that team. But, you're right, it's not a Championship. It's not even playing for one. Pippen without Jordan didn't even get to the finals. A fine point you've made, sir!

It's weird, though, as I'm usually the Pippen apologist. I've never, once, in my entire life, until now, found myself on the side of an argument against anything Pippen. Dude was baller, but that was in huge part to Jordan. Pippen was one of the best side-kicks ever, but he wasn't much without Batman around. The question is if Lebron is so great, why did he need to import two other super heroes to keep the streets of Gotham safe? Answer: because he's a sidekick with a super heroes budget (sidekick mentality with super-hero physical tools).
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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popsicledeath_sl said:
Jordan played a huge role in shaping who Pippen was as a player and that team. But, you're right, it's not a Championship. It's not even playing for one. Pippen without Jordan didn't even get to the finals. A fine point you've made, sir!

It's weird, though, as I'm usually the Pippen apologist. I've never, once, in my entire life, until now, found myself on the side of an argument against anything Pippen. Dude was baller, but that was in huge part to Jordan. Pippen was one of the best side-kicks ever, but he wasn't much without Batman around. The question is if Lebron is so great, why did he need to import two other super heroes to keep the streets of Gotham safe? Answer: because he's a sidekick with a super heroes budget (sidekick mentality with super-hero physical tools).
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Yes. Your logic is flawless. When you lead a team to 55 wins and playoffs after losing the best player to ever play the game, you are nothing more than a second option at best.

Now why did LeBron have to jump to Miami to win? Because Danny Ferry sucked goat dick at getting proper talent around him.

Both of your takes are moronic.

Edit: Let's say you're even right...and Pippen wouldn't have had anywhere near the same career he did had he played elsewhere, he's still about 100x better than anyone LeBron played with in Cleveland.
 
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