NBA 2013?14 Season

Slaythe

Slaythe

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Do you think Chris Paul gets a lot of press? I mean, he's a superstar, so he's going to get some, but I don't think he's talked about anywhere near as much as his contemporaries. My shock to that comment mostly is just because of how good he is. He's the 3rd best player in the league in a tier of 3 elite players.

He's been the best player on 6 playoff teams. And he's legitimately carried all of them. He should be in the discussion with Durant and LeBron every year.
 
Foggy

Foggy

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He isn't close to the Durant and LeBron tier, nobody is. He has never even made it out of the second round. And he gets a shit ton of pub, and has for most of his career. He is billed as the best PG in the league.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Foggy_sl said:
He isn't close to the Durant and LeBron tier, nobody is. He has never even made it out of the second round. And he gets a shit ton of pub, and has for most of his career. He is billed as the best PG in the league.
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He is the best PG in the league and no one comes close. And heison that level. This can be a he says/she says thing we ultimately agree to disagree on if you want, but his stats are right there and they have been his whole career (6 years into his career CP3 is a pretty noticeably more productive player than Durant, who only really jumps to that level these past two years). No one player can win a championship. The best player he's ever played with was David West.

I mean, obviously, you have to make it to, and lose, in the finals in order to be considered that good. The talent around you having no bearing on team success.
 
Djay

Djay

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He's definitely one of the Top 5 PGs in NBA history. He's been the best PG in the league his entire career...I'm with Slaythe here. Like when people used to argue Deron Williams/Chris Paul, I don't see how this is a discussion.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Foggy_sl said:
lol wut?
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See this is where we get into the same ol' argument where I'll state that it's better to have a player score 23 points on 16 shots than 30 on 20 (although this is really close). Or that 5 boards, 11 assists and 3 steals is better than Durant's 8/3/1 with more turnovers, but again, we can just agree to disagree. I know how much you love Durant.

Forget about that though. Just from the idea that they belong in the same discussion, there's little you can point to, statistically, to prove that otherwise. Now you can argue Durant's one finals appearance puts him in another tier if you want. Disagree. We're fine. Durant is as elite as they come. I'm just saying that statistically Paul is too.
 
Foggy

Foggy

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Sure I can.

2014 Season Stats:
Durant: 32.0 ppg 5.5 apg 7.4 rpg 29.90 per .391/.503/.873 splits (with his best teammate injured half the year)
CP3: 19.1 ppg 10.7 apg 4.3 rpg 25.98 per .368/.467/.855 splits

It isn't close.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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How are those not close, from a game impact scenario? Does CP3s 5 extra assists not account for 10 more points? Or the one less turnover, or the one more steal?

I mean, I'm not going to say Durant isn't having a better year. He definitely is, but when you don't cherry pick stats and look at the full box it moves from "It isn't close" to "Actually it's pretty damn close."
 
Foggy

Foggy

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What about blocks? What about that Durant is a better defender? What about that Durant has to carry his team offensively and is STILL more efficient? What about CP3 has a better supporting cast (Fisher and Butler getting huge playoff minutes, lawl). It isn't close. Give Durant a real coach and the gap widens. Durant is 3 years younger, the gap will continue to widen. There is tier 1, Durant and LeBron and nobody else. Then there is tier 2, where CP3, a great player, resides.
 
Djay

Djay

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So, this is really interesting to me because I LOVE Durant and I LOVE Paul. In my mind, the best players are Lebron and Durant at the top with a small gap, then Chris Paul behind them by a bigger margin, but still 3rd.
So, I plugged some numbers into my special formula that means absolutely nothing to any of you.

Durant is obviously the MVP this year...on a PerGame and Per82Game metric, it's not close. Paul was actually better on a PerMinute basis, though.
On a PerGame basis, Paul was better than Lebron this year.

For their career stats, Paul and Lebron are about equal PerMinute. PerGame for their careers, Durant is at 40.11, Paul is 43.67, Lebron is 48.12. To put that in perspective, Magic for his career was 47.83.


TLDR: Lebron has been better over his career, but Durant is the best player now, and Chris Paul deserves to be in the discussion.
 
Ambiturner

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I agree with that assessment. Going by their ability today, and not career, I'd go 1. Durant 2. Lebron 3. Chris Paul

The fact that people were saying Blake was #3 all season is ridiculous. I get casual fans overrating players based on sweet dunks, but this was all over sports pages
 
Springbok

Springbok

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Love Durant, but if I'm starting a team from scratch the first player in the league I'm taking (after LBJ) is CP3. Has nothing to do with last night either, or this series (which OKC should still win). His game is so unique, and so inviting to other players. He makes everyone on that Clippers team look a shit load better than they are, Durant doesn't impact his team in the same way. KD is still a better player overall, but I'd much rather have CP3.
 
Foggy

Foggy

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Djay_sl said:
So, this is really interesting to me because I LOVE Durant and I LOVE Paul. In my mind, the best players are Lebron and Durant at the top with a small gap, then Chris Paul behind them by a bigger margin, but still 3rd.
So, I plugged some numbers into my special formula that means absolutely nothing to any of you.

Durant is obviously the MVP this year...on a PerGame and Per82Game metric, it's not close. Paul was actually better on a PerMinute basis, though.
On a PerGame basis, Paul was better than Lebron this year.

For their career stats, Paul and Lebron are about equal PerMinute. PerGame for their careers, Durant is at 40.11, Paul is 43.67, Lebron is 48.12. To put that in perspective, Magic for his career was 47.83.


TLDR: Lebron has been better over his career, but Durant is the best player now, and Chris Paul deserves to be in the discussion.
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I take back what I said earlier in the thread. I am enjoying your numbers now.
 
Djay

Djay

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Ambiturner_sl said:
I agree with that assessment. Going by their ability today, and not career, I'd go 1. Durant 2. Lebron 3. Chris Paul

The fact that people were saying Blake was #3 all season is ridiculous. I get casual fans overrating players based on sweet dunks, but this was all over sports pages
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It depends on how you look at it. Paul was better in the games he played, but Griffin played in 18 more games. You can't put someone in the MVP discussion that played 62 games. That's why I break the results up into PerMinute, PerGamePlayed, and Per82Games. Griffin actually had a really good season. He's behind Paul, Anthony, and Aldridge on PerGame, but because he didn't miss as much time, he was arguably more important to his team...and he jumps ahead of all of those guys in Per82. That's why I used Per82 for MVP discussions and the other two when talking about who the best players overall are.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Blake is good, but he's exactly the type of player i'd give an overrated tag to. The biggest issue being that he just hasn't really improved at all from when he came into the league. He made a bit of a jump after his rookie year, but just plateaued after that. We see his rebounding percentages declining while usage goes up and everything else stays the same. That isn't a good sign.
 
Djay

Djay

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Slaythe...Just based on the advanced metrics for this last season, where would you put Kevin Love?
I'm doing some sanity checking on my numbers.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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At the head of the second tier behind the three previously discussed along with Curry, Harden and Anthony Davis.

Edit: There are other players with huge box score impacts like Iggy and Drummond that are ultra productive but not high usage that probably belong in this discussion. We seem to be focused on the 1A type players here though so I'll stick with the 4 mentioned above.
 
Djay

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Slaythe_sl said:
At the head of the second tier behind the three previously discussed along with Curry, Harden, Anthony Davis and Noah (just this year for Noah though).
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So, on a PerGame basis, I come out with:
Durant - 48.06
Love - 47.73
Paul - 45.85
Lebron - 44.61
Anthony - 42.35
Aldridge - 42.13
Davis - 42.12
Curry - 42.04
Griffin - 41.69
Harden - 39.81

Those are the Top 10 of the players I've plugged-in for 2014. It should measure their total contribution on a per-game basis. Love and Anthony's positions surprised me, but everything else seems right, and when I look at their stats, it makes sense. Anthony drops way down when I look at PerMinute, but Love is still up there with Paul at the top. I'm trying to figure out if he's underrated or if I just am over-valuing something in my formula that he excels at...offensive rebounds maybe?
 
Foggy

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You aren't capturing any defensive stats are you? Love is amazing on offense and useless on defense, which would explain the numbers.
 
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