Oppenheimer (2023)

Rajaah · Aug 1, 2023

Kaines said:
Hitler ignored a lot of good advice from his generals and advisors.

For instance, Ribbentrop advised Hitler AGAINST declaring war with the US in the event that Japan attacked the US. Because the Tripartite Agreement was purely a defensive pact. Hitler ignored this advice and gave Japan assurances that Germany would join them if they attacked the US.

I think that was his second-biggest mistake. His first was rejecting the USSR from joining the Axis. He had no intention of sharing the world with Stalin though or letting Stalin carve off parts of Europe for himself. He saw the USSR as this big threatening bear to the east that had designs on Europe and he wasn't wrong. In a lot of ways, the war was Germany's to lose. They were too strong and too efficient and they caught pretty much everyone else with their pants down. France was vaunted as Europe's strongest country besides GBR and they got run over. Maginot Line? Yeah. In retrospect it almost seems like after that Germany did everything they could to lose. They didn't need to fight the USSR or US or even GBR, much less all at once.

WW2 in actuality is about 20x more interesting than the simplified version we're taught in school. Everyone had their own motivations and fears. I have a feeling if it hadn't happened when it did (i.e. if Germany had waited until 1949), Stalin would have pre-empted it himself by seizing what he could in Europe. "WW2" would have ended up being France vs USSR and we would have had GBR and Germany on the same side in response.

DickTrickle said:
Did the US know Germany had given up on their nuclear program at the time the US bomb was being developed? I didn't think they had an idea until near the very end of the war. For the movie's timeline it seems reasonable to think they were up in a race against the Nazis for most of that time. I mean, Germany discovered fission and set off the panic in the first place.

Interesting, so the movie's historically accurate in terms of dialogue. Still paints a picture for modern audiences that Germany was racing to develop something they weren't though.

Didn't know Germany discovered fission but I'm not surprised. Thought the US pretty much did everything. Those history books strike again! Norm was right.

Ossoi Oh yeah, Norway had "heavy water" that the Germans needed for nuclear production. Germany being so concentrated of an area was also a huge handicap for them. The Russians could put all their production facilities behind the Ural mountains, and the US had an ocean between them. Germany on the other hand didn't have anywhere to stash something like a Los Alamos, as you said, except maybe in the far reaches of Norway.

Burns · Aug 1, 2023

Rajaah said:
I've always been told that Japan had to be nuked solely because "they were willing to fight to the last man".

I fully believe they were going to surrender once Russia was in Manchuria, after seeing what Russia did to Germany once troops crossed into it. Japan was in for a world of pain if Russia crossed their borders.

It's hard to make that argument though when half their politicians and most of their military brass really did want to fight to the end though.

At the end of the day I would say that if they weren't nuked, a surrender was on the way that very week, but I can't say that 100%. I also think the US wanted to test their new weapon no matter what happened and with how much anti-Asian sentiment there was in the US, Japan was a prime target to light up.

This reminds me, it's worth mentioning again:
If you want the Japanese perspective on the surrender watch Japan's Longest Day. It was made in 1967, so there were still plenty of people alive for them to draw on for movie info.

It's a bit ridiculous that moves like this, Come and See, Gettysburg, etc. are not free to stream, but at least it's popular enough to pirate still: HERE

Burns · Aug 1, 2023

Rajaah said:
I think that was his second-biggest mistake. His first was rejecting the USSR from joining the Axis. He had no intention of sharing the world with Stalin though or letting Stalin carve off parts of Europe for himself. He saw the USSR as this big threatening bear to the east that had designs on Europe and he wasn't wrong. In a lot of ways, the war was Germany's to lose. They were too strong and too efficient and they caught pretty much everyone else with their pants down. France was vaunted as Europe's strongest country besides GBR and they got run over. Maginot Line? Yeah. In retrospect it almost seems like after that Germany did everything they could to lose. They didn't need to fight the USSR or US or even GBR, much less all at once.

Hitler wanted to destroy the USSR over anyone else in the world. He had dreams of getting the UK to join him in his war against Stalin. If France and England didn't come to the aid of Poland, there would have not been a war with either the UK or France until at least the USSR was out of the way, if at all.

Fadaar · Aug 1, 2023

Burns said:
Hitler wanted to destroy the USSR over anyone else in the world. He had dreams of getting the UK to join him in his war against Stalin. If France and England didn't come to the aid of Poland, there would have not been a war with either the UK or France at least until the USSR was out of the way, if at all.

That would have been an interesting scenario. At that point I imagine the US would have just stayed out of the war entirely unless Japan was still retarded enough to hit Pearl Harbor.

Burns · Aug 1, 2023

Fadaar said:
That would have been an interesting scenario. At that point I imagine the US would have just stayed out of the war entirely unless Japan was still retarded enough to hit Pearl Harbor.

US and UK were squeezing Japan because it was interrupting profffits in Asia. So war with an imperialist Japan seems inevitable.

The main questions would have been, would Hitler still have declared war on the US if the math in Europe was different. Would Germany and Japan even been in a pact to begin with, since the treaty between Germany and the USSR was mainly about buying time to better mobilize their respective countries. Which would have ultimately delayed the start of the European theater.

Kaines · Aug 1, 2023

Burns said:
US and UK were squeezing Japan because it was interrupting profffits in Asia. So war with an imperialist Japan seems inevitable.

The main questions would have been, would Hitler still have declared war on the US if the math in Europe was different. Would Germany and Japan even been in a pact to begin with, since the treaty between Germany and the USSR was mainly about buying time to better mobilize their respective countries. Which would have ultimately delayed the start of the European theater.

All this alternate WW2 theory makes me want to play HoI4 again.

I hate you all.

Kirun · Aug 1, 2023

Araysar said:
did the movie mention Russia?

I wish they had gone into what colossal pussyfarts Truman and Eisenhower were for not listening to MacArthur and nuking USSR + Korea into the fucking stoneage. Would've saved the world a LOOOOT of trouble.

Araysar · Aug 1, 2023

Rajaah said:
I think that was his second-biggest mistake. His first was rejecting the USSR from joining the Axis. He had no intention of sharing the world with Stalin though or letting Stalin carve off parts of Europe for himself. He saw the USSR as this big threatening bear to the east that had designs on Europe and he wasn't wrong. In a lot of ways, the war was Germany's to lose. They were too strong and too efficient and they caught pretty much everyone else with their pants down. France was vaunted as Europe's strongest country besides GBR and they got run over. Maginot Line? Yeah. In retrospect it almost seems like after that Germany did everything they could to lose. They didn't need to fight the USSR or US or even GBR, much less all at once.

WW2 in actuality is about 20x more interesting than the simplified version we're taught in school. Everyone had their own motivations and fears. I have a feeling if it hadn't happened when it did (i.e. if Germany had waited until 1949), Stalin would have pre-empted it himself by seizing what he could in Europe. "WW2" would have ended up being France vs USSR and we would have had GBR and Germany on the same side in response.

Interesting, so the movie's historically accurate in terms of dialogue. Still paints a picture for modern audiences that Germany was racing to develop something they weren't though.

Didn't know Germany discovered fission but I'm not surprised. Thought the US pretty much did everything. Those history books strike again! Norm was right.

Ossoi Oh yeah, Norway had "heavy water" that the Germans needed for nuclear production. Germany being so concentrated of an area was also a huge handicap for them. The Russians could put all their production facilities behind the Ural mountains, and the US had an ocean between them. Germany on the other hand didn't have anywhere to stash something like a Los Alamos, as you said, except maybe in the far reaches of Norway.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that USSR wanted to land grab in Europe at any time. The MR Pact is the sole exception because the reason for signing it was to postpone Hitler's invasion of USSR.

Its weird how Russian "land grabs" in Europe are always about building buffer zones to keep from being invaded from the West whether its Poles, or Swedes, or the British, or Napoleon and the French, or the Germans, or the Germans again.

Kirun · Aug 1, 2023

Araysar said:
Its weird how Russian "land grabs" in Europe are always about building buffer zones to keep from being invaded from the West whether its Poles, or Swedes, or the British, or Napoleon and the French, or the Germans, or the Germans again.

That's exactly why the US has gobbled up so many military basses, NATO strongholds, regime changes, etc. It's all just a buffer against invasion from the Japs, Germans, etc.

BrutulTM · Aug 1, 2023

Rajaah said:
Ossoi Ossoi Oh yeah, Norway had "heavy water" that the Germans needed for nuclear production. Germany being so concentrated of an area was also a huge handicap for them. The Russians could put all their production facilities behind the Ural mountains, and the US had an ocean between them. Germany on the other hand didn't have anywhere to stash something like a Los Alamos, as you said, except maybe in the far reaches of Norway.

The Germans tried the method of making weapons-grade plutonium that the US used and it failed because the graphite that they used had impurities in it but they didn't know that. The result was that they gave up on that method and tried to use heavy water. The Allies knew they were trying to get heavy water and did what they could to stop them from getting it. British special forces had some crazy operations into Norway. There's an old movie about it called "The Heroes of Telemark". Germany never got anywhere near enough heavy water to even attempt a prototype weapon, let alone go into production and probably wouldn't have even if they had access to the Norwegian heavy water. The fact that it would have taken them years to produce a single weapon by the method they had worked out was the reason they decided to give up on the project.

Cybsled · Aug 2, 2023

Kirun said:
I wish they had gone into what colossal pussyfarts Truman and Eisenhower were for not listening to MacArthur and nuking USSR + Korea into the fucking stoneage. Would've saved the world a LOOOOT of trouble.

MacArthur just wanted to create a radioactive "wall" to prevent further reinforcements from China/Russia, not push the war farther in terms of actually escalating the conflict and making it a direct war vs. China/Russia on their own soil.

If we play "What if?" and go with Truman agrees with MacArthur and they use the nukes during the Korean War, then nuclear doctrine as we understand it goes out the window for the entire planet. It suddenly becomes acceptable to use nukes in all variety of conflicts and considering how many close calls we had during the Cold War, it isn't too out there that we might not even be having this conversation today since the likelihood of a hot war involving nukes would have been significantly higher. If the various sides have exercised very little self-control in using nukes, then the desire to use first strike tactics (or assuming the other side is going to use first strike tactics) becomes much more likely.

Kirun · Aug 2, 2023

Cybsled said:
MacArthur just wanted to create a radioactive "wall" to prevent further reinforcements from China/Russia, not push the war farther in terms of actually escalating the conflict and making it a direct war vs. China/Russia on their own soil.

No, he was sick of all the fucking pussyfooting around the 38th parallel. MacArthur had been "fine" fighting conventionally and drove the Norks back to the Yalu after fucking them up with the Inchon assault, despite the Soviets basically directly supporting the Nork invasion. Problem is, when a couple hundred thousand Chinamen showed up at the border, MacArthur was like, "Fuck this. Nuke these fucking Commies!".

Winners fuckin' win. MacArthur knew this and when he presented it to Truman, Truman pussied the fuck out. A mistake that would prove VERY costly to America in retrospect (hence China now becoming a major power). Sure, it might've gotten the Soviets involved at that point, but they had just lost 26 MILLION troops and didn't really have an A-Bomb (they didn't test a 2nd one until 2 years AFTER RDS-1).

So, Mac resigned over it. I know, I know. The faggots in the MSM would have you believe that the Joint Chiefs "fired" him, but he was literally given a hero's parade when he dipped and American sentiment about the "stalemate" in Korea was very much aligned with Mac. Many accounts point to him resigning rather than being "fired".

Cybsled said:
If we play "What if?" and go with Truman agrees with MacArthur and they use the nukes during the Korean War, then nuclear doctrine as we understand it goes out the window for the entire planet.

Araysar · Aug 2, 2023

Kirun said:
No, he was sick of all the fucking pussyfooting around the 38th parallel. MacArthur had been "fine" fighting conventionally and drove the Norks back to the Yalu after fucking them up with the Inchon assault, despite the Soviets basically directly supporting the Nork invasion. Problem is, when a couple hundred thousand Chinamen showed up at the border, MacArthur was like, "Fuck this. Nuke these fucking Commies!".

Winners fuckin' win. MacArthur knew this and when he presented it to Truman, Truman pussied the fuck out. A mistake that would prove VERY costly to America in retrospect (hence China now becoming a major power). Sure, it might've gotten the Soviets involved at that point, but they had just lost 26 MILLION troops and didn't really have an A-Bomb (they didn't test a 2nd one until 2 years AFTER RDS-1).

So, Mac resigned over it. I know, I know. The faggots in the MSM would have you believe that the Joint Chiefs "fired" him, but he was literally given a hero's parade when he dipped and American sentiment about the "stalemate" in Korea was very much aligned with Mac. Many accounts point to him resigning rather than being "fired".

Imagine being so retarded that you think that nuking Chinese troops in some regional skirmish would prevent China from emerging as a superpower half a century later?

Rajaah · Aug 2, 2023

Burns said:
This reminds me, it's worth mentioning again:
If you want the Japanese perspective on the surrender watch Japan's Longest Day. It was made in 1967, so there were still plenty of people alive for them to draw on for movie info.

It's a bit ridiculous that moves like this, Come and See, Gettysburg, etc. are not free to stream, but at least it's popular enough to pirate still: HERE

Everyone should see "Come and See". Also "Threads". A few weeks ago during the ZNPP power plant scare, "Threads" was trending worldwide one day, and I was really glad that people were talking about the movie and being aware of what a dangerous situation we were in.

Turned out the trending was actually for Zuckerberg's new "Threads" platform and most people didn't even know anything was going on with the Cuban Missile Crisis type scenario we were in. Was hardly even being discussed outside of places like this board, and news coverage of it was mostly just "Russia is planning to blow up a plant they control IDK lol"

Burns said:
Hitler wanted to destroy the USSR over anyone else in the world. He had dreams of getting the UK to join him in his war against Stalin. If France and England didn't come to the aid of Poland, there would have not been a war with either the UK or France until at least the USSR was out of the way, if at all.

Yep. The revisionist history is that everyone knew Hitler was bad and everyone was against him, but in actuality he was getting along with almost everybody, even Stalin. His mistrust of Stalin and coveting the USSR's land meant he was going after them sooner or later though.

As far as keeping UK/France from declaring war, Poland was in the way of Germany getting to Russia. I guess they could have tried to form a strategic alliance with Poland and baited the USSR into making the first move, but instead they framed Poland for the Reichstag Fire and removed them as a speed bump.

Hardly anybody seems to know that the USSR also invaded Poland. Germany and the USSR basically double-penetrated it from both ends and met in the middle. Also the USSR had been feverishly trying to seize Finland. Hardly anyone knows Finland was basically an honorary Axis member. Like I said before the truth is way more complicated and way more interesting than the simplified version our media sells us.

BrutulTM · Aug 2, 2023

Kirun said:
Winners fuckin' win.

Hateyou · Aug 2, 2023

Rajaah said:
Everyone should see "Come and See". Also "Threads". A few weeks ago during the ZNPP power plant scare, "Threads" was trending worldwide one day, and I was really glad that people were talking about the movie and being aware of what a dangerous situation we were in.

Turned out the trending was actually for Zuckerberg's new "Threads" platform and most people didn't even know anything was going on with the Cuban Missile Crisis type scenario we were in. Was hardly even being discussed outside of places like this board, and news coverage of it was mostly just "Russia is planning to blow up a plant they control IDK lol"

Yep. The revisionist history is that everyone knew Hitler was bad and everyone was against him, but in actuality he was getting along with almost everybody, even Stalin. His mistrust of Stalin and coveting the USSR's land meant he was going after them sooner or later though.

As far as keeping UK/France from declaring war, Poland was in the way of Germany getting to Russia. I guess they could have tried to form a strategic alliance with Poland and baited the USSR into making the first move, but instead they framed Poland for the Reichstag Fire and removed them as a speed bump.

Hardly anybody seems to know that the USSR also invaded Poland. Germany and the USSR basically double-penetrated it from both ends and met in the middle. Also the USSR had been feverishly trying to seize Finland. Hardly anyone knows Finland was basically an honorary Axis member. Like I said before the truth is way more complicated and way more interesting than the simplified version our media sells us.

You know that the double invasion of Poland was planned together by Germany and the USSR right? It wasn’t happenstance. They basically got together and divided up Poland and said ok let’s invade at the same time, no one will fuck with us. France declaring war over it was a surprise to Hitler because everything before that was basically allowed. He kept pushing his boundaries til everyone finally had enough.

Rajaah · Aug 2, 2023

Hateyou said:
You know that the double invasion of Poland was planned together by Germany and the USSR right? It wasn’t happenstance. They basically got together and divided up Poland and said ok let’s invade at the same time, no one will fuck with us. France declaring war over it was a surprise to Hitler because everything before that was basically allowed. He kept pushing his boundaries til everyone finally had enough.

Yeah that's what I was saying. It seems like the retellings always completely leave out that the USSR was willing to gobble up parts of Europe as well. They even wanted to join the Axis. For the longest time (before I looked into things for myself and just went by mainstream narratives) I was under the impression that Germany invaded Poland unilaterally and conquered the whole place for themselves. Lawl, no.

One can interpret the USSR taking half of Poland as "creating a buffer against the Germans" but I don't. I do think Stalin also had designs on Europe, Hitler just acted on his first.

Not only do our retellings leave out that the USSR did the vast majority of the work in winning the war, they also leave out that the USSR was just as aggressive as Germany early on. Americans have to believe the Allies were spotless, but also that the USA did all the heavy lifting and everyone else just "helped"

Burns · Aug 2, 2023

Rajaah said:
Yeah that's what I was saying. It seems like the retellings always completely leave out that the USSR was willing to gobble up parts of Europe as well. They even wanted to join the Axis. For the longest time (before I looked into things for myself and just went by mainstream narratives) I was under the impression that Germany invaded Poland unilaterally and conquered the whole place for themselves. Lawl, no.

One can interpret the USSR taking half of Poland as "creating a buffer against the Germans" but I don't. I do think Stalin also had designs on Europe, Hitler just acted on his first.

Not only do our retellings leave out that the USSR did the vast majority of the work in winning the war, they also leave out that the USSR was just as aggressive as Germany early on. Americans have to believe the Allies were spotless, but also that the USA did all the heavy lifting and everyone else just "helped"

While Stalin was certainly one of the worst people in modern history, I don't think he would have started a war in Europe. He seemed rather focused on internal politics and those would always be tenuous. Plus, the mobilization of the Russian military/economy didn't really start until after Hitler started making major moves toward war. Without trying to find it again, I think it might have been as late as Anschluss (1938), before Stalin got the message.

The USSR military was in terrible shape preceding that and they were scrambling to get ready for the fight they knew was coming. Stalin didn't really have a choice in 1939; the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was made at the point of a gun. While both sides perceived the other as having a stronger military than they had, Germany, in 1938, was far more mobilized and able to make war than the USSR.

Stalin was more opportunistic than anything else, and why I think he tried to take Finland.

Araysar · Aug 2, 2023

Rajaah said:
One can interpret the USSR taking half of Poland as "creating a buffer against the Germans" but I don't. I do think Stalin also had designs on Europe, Hitler just acted on his first.

Stalin had no real designs for Europe other than eventual political Comintern subversion in some undetermined future time frame.

There is a wealth of historical material that points to USSR choosing to enter a non aggression pact with Germany because Stalin rightfully thought that Germany had designs on Russia, and he was trying to buy time to build up the Soviet Army. Historically Russia has always fended off European invasions, not initiated them. Why would this change with Stalin?

Rajaah said:
Not only do our retellings leave out that the USSR did the vast majority of the work in winning the war, they also leave out that the USSR was just as aggressive as Germany early on. Americans have to believe the Allies were spotless, but also that the USA did all the heavy lifting and everyone else just "helped"

Nobody was as aggressive as the Germans at that time, this equivocation is pure hyperbole. USSR was being relentlessly attacked by the West through the first 20 years of its history, why wouldn't it establish buffer zones where it could?

Ever read about the time when UK, US, Canada, Australia, France, Italy, Greece and Japan invaded USSR after WW1 to overthrow the Soviet government? I bet they still leave that one out of the history textbooks.

Indyocracy · Aug 2, 2023

Why do people still engage with

Araysar about Russian shit, its as productive as going into Russia in winter..

Oppenheimer (2023)

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