Overwatch

1 hero limit means you'll have Rein + Mercy + Winston + Widow + flex DPS spot (which is the Genji/76/etc...) but the other 4 would never, ever change. Mercy is the best support bar none. Reinhardt is the best tank bar none. Widow is the backbone of any team, bar none. Winston is the best initiator + disruptor bar none. Your flex DPS spot can be whoever you need for whatever junction of the map you are pushing or defending.

Every team will run that, and it will get stale. It will be like watching DOTA, with their 100+ hero pool, and only seeing the same 10 heros picked every game. Double Win/Lucio/Tracer was fun to watch but counterable by other strategies, but what is the counter to a meta-forced Rein+Mercy+Widow+Winston+DPS strat, but a mirror match, with the defense team getting a flex spot on their last hero for Junkrat/Mei/Pharah/Whoever vs the flex Offense pick of Tracer/Pharah/Genji/Lucio?

Winston was popular but wasn't 100% used. It also seemed to develop where during the streets phase of Kings Row you'd see 0 Widows which was a nice change of pace. I'm sure Rein and Mercy had probably close to 100% use rate but there were some times Roadhog was actually used in combination with Zarya and Rein was left out. I think a big issue right now is on many teams you have your "Rein main" and your "Mercy main" that have put 99% of their hours into those two heroes so they can't actually play other roles or heroes which leads to a stagnated player set as well.

Mercy just needs her ult charge rate nerfed already. Its pretty silly it is literally up every engagement.

Yea a lot of teams are avoiding McCree because of his incoming nerf and focusing on other mid-range DPS like 76/Pharah. The lack of Tracers due to Widow being so dumb means Roadhogs main detriment (ult-soaking-sponge) is lessened if you can capitalize on his hooks. Mercy and Rein are still top picks. It's not because they are mains, it's because they do their job better than any other hero. Lucio is the only other support that comes close to the impact Mercy has on a push/defense, and often he'll be a flex pick for offense pushes.

The game will evolve, and still be enjoyable to watch, I'd love to see D.Va brought up to par with the other tanks (no faith in Blizz on this tbh) and I'd like Zen to have his power level brought back up in line with the other supports, such as his Healing/Discord orbs draw from a "pool" of energy, which caps at 50% healing/50% damage taken for their respective orbs. You can place up to 5 orbs on friendlies/enemies and it halves the potency each time. Remove the LOS bullshit and you have a competitive healer/debuffer. You can remove orbs from people to increase potency at your whim. I'd like Symmetra to be moved to Defense and a proper support in her place. A transmuter hero would be baller - restores health as armor (but at a 2->1 ratio of health missing) which can then be topped off with another support.

Tenks_sl said:

I think that may be more about Hanzo's projectile having a tree-trunk sized collision detection.

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That's a popular thing you hear alot, hanzo shooting tree trunks, and in the open it is the same difference really. But if you test it on corners, he can fire past corners pretty well. If the arrow had a tree trunk capsule, the arrow would stick in the air next to the corner. It does a little bit but just enough to cover the arrow's fins. There's a bunch of youtube vids on it.

Another issue with DVA is with this rez-heavy meta is you rez her but you get half a hero back since she's in her flight suit. I also think you may be shrugging off mains not playing other heroes. I forget what team it was but they put their Reinhardt on Rodhog for a game and it was baaaaaaaad. Even if Roadhog is a technically better hero in some situations if the player who would play him is significantly worse they'll never get off Rein.

Roadhog will never see serious competitive play as long as most of the cast builds their ults off damaging him. Him being so huge and with a pile of HP is far too much free charge for the enemy team for him to ever really be worth it. D.va and Zarya are in similar situations, but at least have ways of their own to mitigate it.

Tenks_sl said:

Another issue with DVA is with this rez-heavy meta is you rez her but you get half a hero back since she's in her flight suit. I also think you may be shrugging off mains not playing other heroes. I forget what team it was but they put their Reinhardt on Rodhog for a game and it was baaaaaaaad. Even if Roadhog is a technically better hero in some situations if the player who would play him is significantly worse they'll never get off Rein.

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Yes this is one of my biggest problems with her as a tank currently. Every other tank a rez is a huge thing and they are back to full beefyness but d.va does not she is still on foot super squishy waiting for her suit cool down.

Ronne_sl said:

Roadhog will never see serious competitive play as long as most of the cast builds their ults off damaging him. Him being so huge and with a pile of HP is far too much free charge for the enemy team for him to ever really be worth it. D.va and Zarya are in similar situations, but at least have ways of their own to mitigate it.

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Of all the complaints with the game I see, I feel like this is the most legitimate and should really be addressed. Building charge over % damage done instead of just damage done makes way more sense and allows for a bigger variety of characters and defenses. Have the current value be kinda vs 200 health champs (or 150 if you want to slow everyone down a bunch) and have it scale from there. Some characters can have further tweaks beyond this.

Its negative about Roadhog. And Ronne is wrong Roadhog is in the competitive meta in a big way right now. Mainly on offense. Its very powerful to hook and kill a defender due to the built-in nature of defenders advantage. Even if Roadhog dies for the hook its generally better to trade since he'll be able to get back to the objective quicker.

Nidhogg_sl said:

1 hero limit means you'll have Rein + Mercy + Winston + Widow + flex DPS spot (which is the Genji/76/etc...) but the other 4 would never, ever change. Mercy is the best support bar none. Reinhardt is the best tank bar none. Widow is the backbone of any team, bar none. Winston is the best initiator + disruptor bar none. Your flex DPS spot can be whoever you need for whatever junction of the map you are pushing or defending.

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This is exactly my problem with the game, buff those less used tanks/healers/etc. to make them better or I'll remain on the sidelines.

Fawe_sl said:

Her suit is off cooldown immediately after rez. Just need to press Q. D'Va is great for stalling since she needs to die 2x and you can usually always re-suit up after rez because you're immune for the first second or so and also immune during the suit-up animation.

D'Va main problem is she's just not great in team fights. She's good for mobility/harass but in a group setting she loses mech too easily, only 500 hp, can't heal herself without using Q and has lowish damage. Reinhardt can smack people in a 360 degree radius, plus stun, Roadhog can CC and 1-shot, Zarya also has CC.... the 3 most popular tanks have hard CC. All 3 can also do crazy damage. D'Va and even Winston lack a bit... now Winston can see a bit more play simply because his Ult is a form of CC, his shield is better and he has a fuckton of health.

D'Va's mobility handicaps her. Can't have a super-tank flying everywhere.

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She is not immune during her call down animation. She can be fully CC'd (and if she is frozen/stunned/knocked down her call MEKA is interrupted entirely) and she can be killed before the MEKA is called down. If someone spots her after a ress they can focus her down and she is either forced to fight as a pilot (100 HP and easily killed up close) or try to suit up, which just makes her a sitting duck and killed anyway.

There is a window where you can dome DVA during her animation and she just flat out dies. I've done it as McCree more than a handful of times by players that either didn't know it or thought they could get away. The window isn't huge but its long enough to line up a reliable head shot.

Yeah its basically when she stands straight up and does whatever shit on her wrist and the mech starts to materialize. The window is just before the mech starts to materialize. I'd say you have maybe half a second or so. Maybe a touch longer.

In big team resses it is usually more than enough time for a McCree to pop you in the face, Reinhardt to waltz up to your during your golden immune animation, and swing once, roadhog to hook you, etc. Sure, you can suit up sometimes, but even then, your MEKA seemingly takes double damage during your jump-in time, and you just get ejected afterwards.

Also, i might just be crazy, but I swear to god Mei can freeze D.Va faster and more often than anyone else. I've been frozen, shot, frozen, shot in rapid succession before my boosters can get me out of range.

Nidhogg_sl said:

1 hero limit means you'll have Rein + Mercy + Winston + Widow + flex DPS spot (which is the Genji/76/etc...) but the other 4 would never, ever change. Mercy is the best support bar none. Reinhardt is the best tank bar none. Widow is the backbone of any team, bar none. Winston is the best initiator + disruptor bar none. Your flex DPS spot can be whoever you need for whatever junction of the map you are pushing or defending.

Every team will run that, and it will get stale. It will be like watching DOTA, with their 100+ hero pool, and only seeing the same 10 heros picked every game. Double Win/Lucio/Tracer was fun to watch but counterable by other strategies, but what is the counter to a meta-forced Rein+Mercy+Widow+Winston+DPS strat, but a mirror match, with the defense team getting a flex spot on their last hero for Junkrat/Mei/Pharah/Whoever vs the flex Offense pick of Tracer/Pharah/Genji/Lucio?

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Did you watch the tournament? Mercy and rein were standard but the others changed drastically, even throughout different points. Mercy is also standard in no-hero limit so I think that just illustrates how strong rez is, and reinhardt always sees a lot of play too. Most heroes actually got to see some play in the hero limit tournament and it was much more fun to watch than the cheese-fest the non-hero limit is right now. The winner, and arguably best player of the tournament talespin from Envy also said in his postmatch interview that he much preferred playing in the hero limit tournament and hoped blizzard went in this direction in future.

I hope so too, though they definitely need another outright 'healer' type at the very least before this happens.

skribble_sl said:

Did you watch the tournament? Mercy and rein were standard but the others changed drastically, even throughout different points. Mercy is also standard in no-hero limit so I think that just illustrates how strong rez is, and reinhardt always sees a lot of play too. Most heroes actually got to see some play in the hero limit tournament and it was much more fun to watch than the cheese-fest the non-hero limit is right now. The winner, and arguably best player of the tournament talespin from Envy also said in his postmatch interview that he much preferred playing in the hero limit tournament and hoped blizzard went in this direction in future.

I hope so too, though they definitely need another outright 'healer' type at the very least before this happens.

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I was at a baseball game all day, so I missed that specific tournament - I heard that Talespin's Pharah was pretty spectacular which begs the question of where the other team's Widowmaker was? She shuts Pharah down hard. I'll watch the VODs when I get free time when I get home from work. Non hero limit isn't cheese fest imo, it opens up more strat possibilities than 1 hero limit by virtue of having more variety in team compositions.