Abefroman
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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I do play the game. You don't need to switch your whole fucking team. Balancing shit because of some stupid pug is fucking retarded.
Overwatch
- Thread starter Caliane
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TF2 had class caps for competitive, right?
I imagine this game would need to implement caps too, but whether it happens outside the pro scene is another question.
I really doubt Blizzard will do it, but I'm starting to think they should for Ranked play. It's going to come down to how well a balanced team can fare against a stacked team. At lower MMR it won't matter but as you climb the ranks it'll become more of an issue.
I imagine this game would need to implement caps too, but whether it happens outside the pro scene is another question.
I really doubt Blizzard will do it, but I'm starting to think they should for Ranked play. It's going to come down to how well a balanced team can fare against a stacked team. At lower MMR it won't matter but as you climb the ranks it'll become more of an issue.
They had caps because if developer laziness. TF2 wasn't very well supported when it came to balancing the game. User-enforced limits is a band aid solution for something the game should fix itself. At the present stacking is not a problem even in comp play. The only real stacking seen is double Lucio or double Reaper. I think if you start seeing 3x a hero used in a "standard" comp then some rebalancing needs to occur. But that isn't the case. *Ocassionally* you'll see overloaded comps but that is generally to either push a payload from 99% to 100% or deny a 99% payload.
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I haven't had to play against too many stacked teams, and I've not been part of any, so it hasn't affected me much at all yet.
The only reason I am starting to advocate having a hero cap is because this game isn't like CS:GO where it's item based, and it's not like TF2 where it was only like 6 classes (easier to balance).
This game has unique heroes that need to have an identity, and we need to assume there will be more heroes in the future.
Not having caps means the game becomes much harder to balance with every new hero. Even now the roster is too large to balance perfectly. There will always be a hero that counters another. Once enough hours are committed, players will get very efficient with their comps to the point every match will be Stack vs Stack. It's inevitable tbh.
It's too early to think about how Blizzard may increase the roster. Maybe they never add new heroes, in which case it is a continuous balancing act where heroes come in and out of the meta at the whims of the balance team. Whatever happens, 100% balance is a myth. Since balance is impossible then comps will come down to whatever is most efficient, which means stacked teams.
The only reason I am starting to advocate having a hero cap is because this game isn't like CS:GO where it's item based, and it's not like TF2 where it was only like 6 classes (easier to balance).
This game has unique heroes that need to have an identity, and we need to assume there will be more heroes in the future.
Not having caps means the game becomes much harder to balance with every new hero. Even now the roster is too large to balance perfectly. There will always be a hero that counters another. Once enough hours are committed, players will get very efficient with their comps to the point every match will be Stack vs Stack. It's inevitable tbh.
It's too early to think about how Blizzard may increase the roster. Maybe they never add new heroes, in which case it is a continuous balancing act where heroes come in and out of the meta at the whims of the balance team. Whatever happens, 100% balance is a myth. Since balance is impossible then comps will come down to whatever is most efficient, which means stacked teams.
Amzin
Lord Nagafen Raider
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The whole problem with that argument is stacks are never going to be efficient for very much of a match at the competitive level unless there are actually no counters, in which case obviously something broke anyway. If there are counters to a stack, you can have (fewer) of your team switch to the counter, destroying their stack. The stacking team then has to swap AGAIN or else just get rolled over. Since stacking requires more players than countering, the stacking team is going to have way fewer ultimates in the matchup, which are game-changing abilities. If you're giving the enemy team 3-4 more ultimates (or more) by trying to buy (inherently limited) time with stacking, at the competitive level, you're going to lose.
It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. It just needs to keep following the rock-paper-scissors system and have meaningful, impactful, ultimates.
It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. It just needs to keep following the rock-paper-scissors system and have meaningful, impactful, ultimates.
But the game is designed to be imbalanced. A team full of Winstons performs a niche role and if you decided to lock in 2 S76's and a Pharah as your damage that team full of Winstons is going to take the first cap point rather easily. But once you have the counters out suddenly the imbalance swings back towards your favor. Like I said the problem occurs when an individual hero's power is such that it lends itself to being stacked, that hero itself is just outright overtuned or the hero lacks a counter. As long as Blizzard addresses those issues they can rather easily remove the allure of stacking. I disagree with your assessment that stacked comps are inevitable. If anything is inevitable it is probably comps will get too static where X tank + Y off tank + Z support + ABC DPS is considered "the best." Sort of like in Starcraft where you don't just stack the same unit over and over but certain compositions are considered the best on certain maps. But I guess that analogy falls apart since in Overwatch your team's "race" (in Starcraft terms) is fluid as is your opponent's "race." So if you make Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Viking (a common HotS Terran composition versus Protoss) it is like in Overwatch your opponent just shifts over to being Zerg and your composition now suddenly sucks.
In other words the game is too young, the player pool is too small and the mechanics are too unexplored to try to enforce any ruleset at the moment. If it becomes a problem then address it at that point in time. Right now it is not a problem.
In other words the game is too young, the player pool is too small and the mechanics are too unexplored to try to enforce any ruleset at the moment. If it becomes a problem then address it at that point in time. Right now it is not a problem.
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I agree right now isn't the time to address it.
And the stacks I imagine would be like a 4-1-1 comp. Stacking 4 of something (tank or damage) but then like 1 sniper 1 support or a 4-2 where it's 4 damage + 2 support, etc.
Basically I don't think we'll see 5x or 6x stacks. We'll see a lot of 4x which would still be annoying and problematic imo.
edit: And regarding the Ultimates, I agree it is a huge deterrent but I can see a common strat where teams swap team comps after using ult charges, or some crap like that.
And the stacks I imagine would be like a 4-1-1 comp. Stacking 4 of something (tank or damage) but then like 1 sniper 1 support or a 4-2 where it's 4 damage + 2 support, etc.
Basically I don't think we'll see 5x or 6x stacks. We'll see a lot of 4x which would still be annoying and problematic imo.
edit: And regarding the Ultimates, I agree it is a huge deterrent but I can see a common strat where teams swap team comps after using ult charges, or some crap like that.
Needless
Toe Sucker
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This game is going to be incredibly boring in a competitive scene anyway, look at how vanilla the current meta is. Lucio + Zenyatta on every team then double tank (either reinhardt + winston, or double winston) and then 2 of either reaper/soldier/phara. Pretty much always have an offensive genji if they take Zenyatta as well.
Zzzzzz, borderline un-watchable gameplay
edit: yes meta changes all the time but it's still just not really an exciting game at all competitively and i think tigole knows that.
Zzzzzz, borderline un-watchable gameplay
edit: yes meta changes all the time but it's still just not really an exciting game at all competitively and i think tigole knows that.
And re:Genji. I think quite a few heroes could use a pass on limiting their long-range damage. McCree and S76 got the treatment. Blizzard should really assert that these are "long range" heroes and not give damage falloff but mid-short range heroes should have a pretty hefty falloff penalty. As for Genji it makes basically zero sense he can throw ninja stars like Widowmaker shooting bullets. Possibly don't give them a ton of drop-off in damage but make it so they fall similar to Hanzo's arrows -- but even more dramatically.
One thing I wish is they'd make a "barrier buster" hero. Right now it is kind of Bastion but the weird part is Bastion gets countered so bad by Winston it isn't really an option. Maybe just look into making it so explosives do bonus damage to barriers. I feel if they added a better counter to barriers you'd not only see more diversity in the standard tank picks (right now it is Winston and Reinhardt are head and shoulders above the others) but it would also remove the common complaint behind Winston on Rein stacking.
Unfortunately the damage on that even fully charged isn't really so much to concern the Reinhardt. He'd just get healed back up by his support for the next shot.
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I never really thought about it until I was in-game but Widowmaker is pretty damn good on offense at the final stretch of Hollywood. That hallway is really fucking long and you can snipe without fear from behind the boxes.
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I believe Blizzard said there is currently a bug with Zenyatta where he incorrectly is obtaining assist credit leading to frequent POTG as that hero