Overwatch

Cybsled

Avatar of War Slayer
16,494
12,151
They basically used Valve's pudge hook fix to stop fountain hooking as their balance idea for Roadhog's hook ;p
 

KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
1,456
180
Alternatively I get equally frustrated when people refuse to play around some non-meta comp. Sure some guy is an asshole and refusing to get off Bastion. It sucks. But make some lemonade out of the lemons. Don't just pick a Zarya/Roadhog into your Bastion comp. Have someone go Mercy and have someone go Rein. Play to the strengths of what this guy refuses to not play. But unfortunately people will still play the "most meta" characters despite them being sub-optimal based upon some other pick.

its not even that its bastion on defense. That doesnt bother me all that much, but its like sombra anytime (sombra is fuckinng horrible) its attack widow when they cant fucking shoot and attack Torb. At times you are pretty much playing 5v6. You can only adjust so much. I know you tried to use bastion to get out your point to adapt, but sometimes no ammount of adapting is going to do any good, if the other team is playing with their heads.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I'd argue Widow is best used on attack, personally. I've also had some decent luck with attack Torbs as long as the Reinhardt will shield the Torb while he's constructing a turret. If you don't provide the attack Torb any cover he'll just endlessly sit hammering his turret and it will never reach Level 2. However if you allow him protection to set it up I wouldn't say it is effective but at least you're back to a 6v6 situation. Too often people play this game like its "me against the world" when you should really be trying to work together towards the common goal and sometimes that means having to overly support someone playing suboptimally to heighten your chances.

Also a Torb pro-tip. If you have Molten Core up but don't have a turret in place you can pop MC, shift down a turret and then stand in the LOS of whomever is shooting the turret preventing you from having it reach L2/L3. You will absorb the damage (you've got a fuckton of armor it won't kill you) and will let you construct the turret and have it's L3 goodness kill everyone.
 

lost

<Bronze Donator>
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Issue is people just need to know how to work together and change classes when it isnt working. Sometimes I'm off my game and not getting the kills I should, so I swap healer let someone else dps. Sometimes someone else sucks at dps and I go dps.

Saw this on teh official forums about MMR.
The system does in fact try to place equal sized groups on opposite teams whenever possible. Your report for game 2 where both 3 player groups were on the same team definitely seems like something that shouldn't happen based on the rules we've setup, so I'll look into it further.

We do need to do a better job of not placing players into "unwinnable" matches. When the matchmaker creates a match, it determines the % chance for each team to win based on the match it made. The VAST majority of matches are usually near to 50% (especially if you're a player closer to median skill rating and you're not in a group), but I've definitely seen logs of matches where that's really not the case and my eyebrows raise.

The unfortunate truth is that there is not always a "perfect" match for you, especially at very high (and very low!) skill ratings where there's fewer players of similar skill. Then you throw in the desire to match groups vs. groups, with everybody having low latency, and doing ALL of this as fast as possible even though it’s the 3AM offpeak... it can get tough. We've tried different tunings with regards to wait times, and the improvements were unfortunately modest as we increased the time to wait. Still, this is an area we're always looking to improve and tune better.

Fortunately, when we do put you in a match that we know isn't a 50/50, we adjust your SR gain or loss based on your calculated change of winning. So if you did get placed into a match with only a 20% chance to win and then you lose, you shouldn't lose much SR.

For matchmaking groups, there's actually two separate issues that we try to solve. The first issue is "How do we handle groups formed of players with different MMRs?". With season 2 we prevented players of REALLY disparate Skill Rating from grouping, but there's still some variance we need to handle. Over time we've tested different models to try and see what's best and are now using what tested most accurately. (Hint: it's not simply averaging the MMRs)

The other issue is how do we model the synergistic effects of players being together in a group. As you noted, they have access to voice chat. Now here's where things get interesting. This "massive" advantage actually differs based upon the skill rating of the group members. Based upon the data we've seen groups of low to mid SR players don't see that much improvement to their win %. Higher SR players do see more notable improvements, but it's not as huge as you might think. Still, we do take this into account when we predict the win% for each team. Regardless of how the data looks, we do know there's a perception of a large advantage for groups. That's one of the reasons why we explicitly try to match similar sized groups together.

So then why do points for losses and wins seem so random? Well, the amount of MMR (and SR) you go up or down isn't simply a matter of whether you won or lost, and what was your predicted chance of winning. There's a couple of other things at work. One is the matchmaker's confidence in what your MMR should be. Play a lot of games, it gets more certain. Don't play Overwatch for a while, it gets less certain. You go on a large win or loss streak, it gets less certain. The more certain the matchmaker is about your MMR, the less your MMR will change in either direction based on a win or loss.

As a minor factor, we also do evaluate how well you played the heroes you used in a match. The comparison is largely based on historical data of people playing a specific hero (not medals, not pure damage done), and we've done a lot of work to this system based on the community's feedback. In fact, I've seen some people indicate that they don't think we're doing this anymore. We still are. While it's a minor factor compared to wins/losses (The best way to increase your SR is still to play together and win as a team!), doing so does help us determine your skill more accurately and faster.

So take all that into account, the SR gain/loss after any single match can be a bit more "noisy" that it seems it should, but we're asking it to look at a lot of different factors to do the best job it can creating fair matches for you.

As an aside to all of this...

"Fair" matches doesn't always mean that every Ilios match goes 3-2 and 100-99 on the final point, or each team gets the payload to the end in overtime on Dorado, etc. Sometimes when two evenly matches teams play, the result can be one-sided. It just means that at that single moment in time the enemy team played better. It's not always the matchmaker's, your's, or your team's(!!!) fault that you got stomped.

Interesting it says this about MMR rating (or why you get little points for wins) if you "Play a lot of games, it gets more certain. Don't play Overwatch for a while, it gets less certain. You go on a large win or loss streak, it gets less certain. The more certain the matchmaker is about your MMR, the less your MMR will change in either direction based on a win or loss."

Certainly lends to making new accounts to get higher PR or just not playing one for a bit.
 

Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
10,260
7,616
They need an option for people who want to wait for a properly balanced match makeup. I have no problem waiting 3-5 minutes for Comp matches if it means a better experience in game. With that said I think this comp season has done a good job of matching people up, but I'm at 2k and it usually pretty close to insta-queue for me. I think it's the toxicity they need to do a better job of getting a handle on. I think the tank meta has added a ton to the toxicity which doesn't help at all. The tank meta chaffs me the most, but I will concede Christmas and NY's plays a roll in this too.

The new map is good, but I'm getting sick of the same game modes over and over again so I'm not so hyped about it. They need a new game mode for the next map they put out.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I'm at around 2700 right now and rarely do we 3 tank and never do we 4 tank. If you are on DPS and switch to say a Roadhog/Dva/Zarya one of the other tanks will almost always switch to a DPS role. The few times we have 3 tanked things generally end up going poorly since so much emphasis is on the Ana to correctly heal/nade and I wouldn't expect a 2700 Ana to have the proper feel for healing 3 tank.

I also think the game does a pretty decent job matching people up. Steam rolls happen because maybe the teams were matched up where the opponents (or you) were forced into playing uncomfortable roles, you never really got the teamwork down with some players or someone just flat out had a terrible game. I don't think any amount of waiting will matter for people in vast majority bracket range.
 

slippery

<Bronze Donator>
7,894
7,708
I played a few comp games last night and hit Diamond. I've barely played Season 2/3, and the game definitely thinks I'm below where I should be because I'm barely losing anything and gaining like 40 a win.

Sometimes you get people playing characters they really shouldn't and don't switch, you just have to live with it. There was an Ana in my game who I swear to god never healed anyone, it's pretty hard to overcome. We got close, but that's a brutal handicap. Then the game after I had a team that was communicating well and really good about switching and we just stomped. I think the thing I took away most from watching Seagull is that you just have to try to play your best and do what you can without worrying too much about everyone else. You can make a suggestion nicely and sometimes they'll take it, sometimes they won't, but just live with it and do what you can.

There was a game on Hanamura defense where my team bitched about me playing Torb while I had 4 golds on point A, and single handedly stopped a push and ended up buying us 2 minutes. Then the second support swapped to a tank and we ended up getting rolled on the second point before I realized it. It's never worth fighting with those people who are just going to sit around and blame others, because there is always something you could have done better yourself anyways.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I was on a game Numbani and some guy was just not getting off Junkrat. That is fine sometimes the Junkrat mains are good (usually not, though.) This guy was 76. I was Ana. I saw this guy get himself so far out of position on the enemies first push and died in nanoseconds. Literally he got discordered, ate a Zen headshot while also getting some other damage. He wasn't behind the Rein shield and just decided to peek for no reason. Immediate death, probably did zero damage. He, and everyone in the game, decided to gang up on the Junkrat player blaming the loss on him. I eventually just had to speak up saying it was the 76 that lost us the engagement due to his abysmal positioning. Point is even if you *think* everyone else around you is the cause of the loss you really need to check out exactly what is going on elsewhere. This game is too complicated to boil down to "X player sucks thats why we lost."

Honestly I find myself winning more games the more I swap heroes. It makes your team comp unpredictible and harder to counter. Almost every hero has a counter be it soft or hard in this game. If you can quickly diagnose the problem in your games and adapt you can roll. Like often times the "We aren't getting kills, the DPS sucks!" means the front line is never getting broken probably because the supports are free healing. Just swap to a Winston/Dva/Genji/Tracer and eat their supports. This may even be something to do if you're in the support role. If shit just isn't working just swap it around. I've won plenty of games with 1 support and plenty with 1 tank. You aren't playing for a 100k prize pool and your coordination sucks in solo queue so you can win with some pretty stupid shit as long as you can recognize problems.
 

lost

<Bronze Donator>
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I either go lucio, zen, mercy or soldier really. Soldier always feels like a must, hard to replace him.. I am a good mcree but i'm either on target or not on at all with mcree so soldier works better, and lucio/zen I interchange but ana counter's zen's ult which sucks. I don't like ana, she's OP but the target heal is annoying to me. I generally heal when I'm drinking or smoking so I dont want to have to aim lol

With that said I did get bitched at to play ana over mercy, we did win but it was crazy. I preferred to use my nade on the enemies than the tanks, it was fun sniping pharah's too. Ana does some awesome dps when you can stop focusing on healing for a second

It is true though I always notice how teams will focus our healers but we arent focusing theirs and thats how we lose. Especially when my team doesnt want to have two healers and I'm thje only one, getting focused by a genji and tracer.
 

slippery

<Bronze Donator>
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It is true though I always notice how teams will focus our healers but we arent focusing theirs and thats how we lose. Especially when my team doesnt want to have two healers and I'm thje only one, getting focused by a genji and tracer.

This is a pretty common problem, and usually just people trying to push too far forward and being way the fuck out of any reasonable position is the cause. People just think way too much about "gotta get kills" and forget to play the actual game, and that's what causes you to lose.

Like was said, I know when I'm on a dps and my tanks are useless as fuck I'm going to have a bad game.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
Killing the healers is a big reason I am playing DVa recently. She is so incredibally powerful at shifting in, waiting a sec on high ground for shift to come back, dropping into the backline to snipe the Lucio/Zen (Ana is harder since she basically gets a free burst heal and will sleep you) and just shift out. You can kind of do the same with Zarya as well but its a tad more suicidal. But she can bubble herself and just walk through the Rein shield and LMB the healers to death pretty quickly. Reins also love to drop their shield when this happens which makes it very obvious for your team to walk in behind you and kill their Rein. If I can trade off my life for a healer and Rein that is basically a won team fight right there.
 
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Dashivax

N00b
114
3
Looks like a lot of people in here are stuck in lower ratings and feel like they shouldn't be there. I know the feeling, and this season I had to really work to get my way back up to Master from a low Plat placement.

Anyone below 3k rating I recommend you immediately mute all chat and voice chat and just focus on playing your best. Do not wait till everyone else picks their hero, do not try to pick the best hero based on the rest of your team's comp, if they suck at those heroes and you are playing a hero you are subpar at you won't get above the 51% win rate target. Pick your best hero immediately and play that hero as often as possible and only focus on improving your play.

If you do those things you will have a much more enjoyable experience at the lower ratings, and likely get out of the lower ratings much faster, especially if you feel you deserve a higher rating. If you are hitting 40%+ accuracy on most DPS heroes you should not be below 3k rating. Stop getting tilted by shitty players on your team and focus more on taking advantage of the enemy team's shitty players. The sooner you realize everyone at that rating is (on average) just as bad as the people you complain about on your team, the sooner you will be getting out of that rating by taking advantage of them.

My number one hero recommendation for sub 3k rating is Pharah. At lower ratings people have lower awareness, Pharah abuses this to a high degree with the ability to attack from angles they aren't expecting. Dropping on top of their healers and killing them in 2-3 rockets will immediately give your team a huge advantage in every fight. Pharah's ultimate kills important targets faster and more reliably than any other DPS ult. Conc blast can be used to push enemies out of position easily, push DPS and tanks off high ground by hitting the ground or wall behind them. Push a Rein out of the choke and into your team and he is fucked. All in all I don't think any other hero can abuse low skill players as much as a Pharah can if you use all of her tools effectively.

The one downside is you can be countered by a good McCree or Soldier, however it requires a GOOD McCree or Soldier, which should be unlikely at lower ratings. All the way through 3.5k rating I routinely killed Soldiers from a distance or closed the distance to close range quickly and picked them with 2 rockets. Soldier is only a threat to you at mid range, if you aren't aware he has a bead on you. Just look for him, pick him, then you have free reign on the rest of their team. A good McCree is more difficult but also rarer at low rating, just have to pick your battles better and not spend as much time in the air. I never consider swapping off Pharah unless the enemy team started running both McCree and Soldier to counter, and at least one of them was good. Any other comp you will abuse easily.

Anyone solo queueing as healer at low rating is at the completely mercy of RNG as far as ranking up. If you are high rating sure you can contribute in a big way as a healer and the team would fail if you sucked, but at low rating if the tanks and DPS are shit, using ults at the wrong time, running back one at a time to die, then no amount of sick plays as a healer will make up for it.

As far as tanks I can't recommend them for low rating. If you have to play one pick DVA or second choice Zarya. They have game changing ults and the most utility to take advantage of the other teams bad players. At low rating that is all that matters, your team doesn't matter at all.
 
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KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
1,456
180
actually pretty good advice, im used of waiting to fill in the spot. Im going to jsut stick to my zarya, zenyatta and occasionally Soldier. Gonna see how that works.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
Most of that advice is valid if you actually are mechanically better than your opponents. Chances are most people actually are not.
 
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lost

<Bronze Donator>
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Yeah if youre super good at your class ok but ignoring the make up of the team seems bad, what if you need a rein or a 2nd healer =P but if youre not getting the kills as soldier or healing isnt enough from zenyatta cause you have a lucio instead of a mercy/ana then figure it out. I might start practicing a tank, was thinking roadhog or rein, lot of times I'll be like i can dps or heal but they need a tank, or a rein to be specific and no one is good at him then im like FML -20 points inc
 

KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
1,456
180
Yeah if youre super good at your class ok but ignoring the make up of the team seems bad, what if you need a rein or a 2nd healer =P but if youre not getting the kills as soldier or healing isnt enough from zenyatta cause you have a lucio instead of a mercy/ana then figure it out. I might start practicing a tank, was thinking roadhog or rein, lot of times I'll be like i can dps or heal but they need a tank, or a rein to be specific and no one is good at him then im like FML -20 points inc
it depends on certain characters only, i just played 4 in a row all zarya, and lost all 4 and in 3 of them i had 3 golds for kills/damage and obj kill sand the other i had gold in kills and obj kills and bronze in total damage. You still need some help unless you can carry with a genji, but i suck ass with a genji even a pharah, i dont play pharah hardly if at all.
 

Picasso3

Silver Baronet of the Realm
11,333
5,322
I get the most golds/medals with soldier and have the lowest win rate with him.

For my low skill self nothing beats zenyatta, win about 60% (46 on soldier, 52 on genji) now that I've gotten better at staying back and barraging chokes I probably do more work casually getting drunk than if i was on an adderall genji heater

I def agree with him on pharah being able to wreck teams.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,213
894
Killing the healers is a big reason I am playing DVa recently. She is so incredibally powerful at shifting in, waiting a sec on high ground for shift to come back, dropping into the backline to snipe the Lucio/Zen (Ana is harder since she basically gets a free burst heal and will sleep you) and just shift out. You can kind of do the same with Zarya as well but its a tad more suicidal. But she can bubble herself and just walk through the Rein shield and LMB the healers to death pretty quickly. Reins also love to drop their shield when this happens which makes it very obvious for your team to walk in behind you and kill their Rein. If I can trade off my life for a healer and Rein that is basically a won team fight right there.

I've been going DVA recently and my goodness is she op. I think i've played her 3-5 games and had gold in kills and objective kills. Usually towards the top in damage but you're right, she can really get in there and disrupt a team. It's easy to take out a healer or any player for that matter that is giving your team issues. I had began noticing as I played Pharah this season that if I was on a roll, a DVa would fly into me, no matter where I may be in the air, and take me out. She's an excellent character to play if you are PUG'ing. Another advantage to DVa is her ult. If you have people on the payload, objective, etc. and you need to turn the tide, you can get a triple+ while everyone is stacked up fairly easy. I've never really played Zarya but I can definitely vouch for DVa right now.
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
its not even that its bastion on defense. That doesnt bother me all that much, but its like sombra anytime (sombra is fuckinng horrible) its attack widow when they cant fucking shoot and attack Torb. At times you are pretty much playing 5v6. You can only adjust so much. I know you tried to use bastion to get out your point to adapt, but sometimes no ammount of adapting is going to do any good, if the other team is playing with their heads.
I think it was complexity the other day I saw in a tournament using Sombra on attack points to good effect. Hacked rein + discord orb and heals from zen makes her low damage not so bad. But her ult is really good at capturing points, saw several times in the tourney where their team just completely crushed a team fight at the capture point with it.