Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Beastro · May 11, 2014

Dumar_sl said:
Define progress. Relatively speaking, you started off with Shakespeare and you're now watching a down-syndrome Elmer Fudd cartoon in this modern gaming industry.

The integrity of EQ's gameplay lasted well past vanilla, into RoK and SoV.

Vanilla EQ to SoV was barely two years though. If you add SoL and PoP to the Golden Age then you get another two more years or so so they have a point.

I do personally consider vanilla WoW to be only the first 6 months or so or however long it was until the release of battlegrounds. Once those started coming out it completely turned the PvP climate upside down besides maybe in a zone or two.

Quaid_sl said:
The fact that you think root DOTing and snare kiting are exploits says quite a bit about the validity of your opinions regarding early era EQ.

It does make one wonder what they're getting at.

Remove those uses and snare is completely useless in the intended tank and spank while roots utility is greatly curtailed.

Sunspots_sl said:
The funny thing is that most of the people who were good at EQ back in the day *did* move on and become good at other games. Its the guys that required 10 years to actually achieve anything in the game that romanticize it the most because it literally was this huge chasm of difficulty that they overcame. The rest of us just played the game and moved on.

This board keeps showing it's bluebie heritage and both your post and the ones you're replying to it show it. The game world and PvE was window dressing to me even if it was most of what I did, what was the core of EQ to me as a Rallos player was the atmosphere the game and community created between PKs, Anti's and Powergamers.

It's why I feel I'm more flexible about what I in MMOs, and while I'd like them to be retro like EQ, so long as they recreate that open world and player driven competition over content, I'm for the most part happy.

Erronius_sl said:
I wouldn't use the word"regressed", maybe"stagnated"would be a better word. No one has really shaken things up or succeeded at creating an entirely new paradigm. Even WOW design is strikingly similar to EQ1 design on a ton of points, people just tend to get hung up on a lot of minor stuff.

Classes being able to solo content is a fantastic example - it exists in both EQ1 and WOW, only WOW decided to go with more class parity as opposed to the EQ1 design of"certain classes can solo, but the rest of you retards are screwed". One would think that WOW allowing everyone to solo instead of just certain classes would be an improvement, yet we frequently hear people complain about this as if WOW screwed the pooch by doing so. Yet...I don't think I've ever heard any of the people who attack WOW for allowing everyone to solo ever say something like"Yeah, NO ONE should be able to solo, ever: NERF DEM DRUIDS, BARDS, NECROS, ETC". So in the end it seems like people are wanting to be able to selectively "break" a game instead of marginalizing how important that was by allowing everyone to do it. Which is fine, except for the minor issue being that people tend to whitewash this kind of thing and ignore the fact that the design itself was awful and that it was inherently broken to allow only certain classes to break content, all so that those people can have access to classes that allow them to do exactly that.

Even though at the time I thought that WOW was a huge departure from EQ1...and on a number of fronts, it was...over time I've come to realize that it's probably still similar enough to EQ1 design that a lot of our debates are largely meaningless. I don't think that the genre is stagnant because WOW was so different from EQ1 that a return to EQ1 design is what we need, I think the genre is stagnant because the opposite is true: even with the differences that exist WOW is still similar to EQ1, as is almost every other MMO that has come out in the last decade or so. The genre is stagnant because everything that comes out is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash, and playing the umpteenth iteration of a level, item and progression based MMO with only a few differences from other level, item and progression based MMOs is one of the most boring and soul crushing things that someone can do.

The WoW devs said ages ago that when the first mulled over the idea of creating the game they asked themselves what kind of MMO they wanted to create and everyone agreed that they wanted to make an improved EQ clone with all the rough edges smoothed out.

3) massive dungeons and death penalties- i lump these two together because without a death penalty, then the size of the dungeon wouldn't really matter. as much as people hate them, without a death penalty, no fear exists in the game, and without the fear of losing, the thrill of winning is nonexistent.

Even if you remove the exp penalty and keep corpse recovery in it still stands. Anyone who doubts that should think about how many exped in Velks at kobolds and beyond.

Flipmode · May 11, 2014

Sunspots_sl said:
No Doubt, Being in one of the Uberguilds was a lot of fun because we had free tickets to all the best content in the game, and you know what ruined it? Other people. The minute the second tier guilds and the first tier Asian guilds started taking a piece of the pie it was a real eye opener on how much it sucked.

From my observations, this is spot on!

Dyvim · May 11, 2014

Maester Chuk_sl said:
no shit, we had luclin on lockdown because our competition didnt have the first clue or the intestinal fortitiude to suck dick at those commander camps for weeks on end to get a chance at emp ssra and when we killed him the first time we had the hardest fight in our history, fucker was death touching as well as hitting for a ton of bricks and constantly spawning adds if you didnt keep the first set alive and offtanked. when they tuned him down we were so pissed because he was trivial in comparison and we were not done celebrating loot chrsitmas in VT.

the other guild hated us so much but all we really wanted to do was stay away from them. which is funny i guess in a certain way.

Offtank the first half off minions while keep the other half mezzed. Great challenging and fun fight for 40 mins; too bad they nerfed it into another tank/spank encounter while they decided mid luclin that the boring walking mana battery job should be restricted to necros instead of mages with the mod rod mk2 nerf.
Only to have this type of encounter return later (in a worse way) with (eventually fixed) council of rathe raid.

Helldiver · May 11, 2014

In my opinion it's not another EQ perse that folks are jonesing for, but rather the notoriety, respect, and entitlement they enjoyed in EQ. No other game has since reproduced that.

There are certain things that I miss from EQ that I wish mmos had, racial hatred and dynamic factions. Roll an Elf? Hated by Ogres. Roll a Dark Elf? Hated by Elves, and so on. Doing quests to gain friendship with a particular group that's KoS to you and opening up quest opportunities or new areas, and so on. I really miss that aspect of EQ. WoW had some of it, but it felt forced and seemed to have been integrated into the core progression. In EQ it was a side thing, and although Kunark expanded on it, it was so cool to meet someone who was friendly to a faction you normally hated.

But the thing about EQ that I miss the most which no other MMO has been able to reproduce since, is the feeling of importance I enjoyed. Getting whispers for help some place, people inspecting me and checking out what gear I had. I remember getting efreeti boots and the many people congratulating me. The first time I evaced a full group where everyone had a sliver of health left in Seb, and so on.

The death penalties, the grind, the drop rates, they all created a divide between the haves and have-nots. It was a game that rewarded risk. There was no instance running into Lower Guk. You wanted to have some of that pie, you had to invis/camo or something to get through the place and find the spot and hope the party had a spot for you, or coordinate with groups remotely and work your way down. It took major balls to do the things people did in that game and you gave respect. I mastered some crazy kites towards the end of it all, but I never quite mastered kiting a room, it was just not possible in my mind. After witnessing a wizard do it over and over (working on AAs) solo, I had to respect that guy. Personally, that was the "genius" of EQ. The shit people who had the nerve, the wit, the balls, and patience to do it and get away with it successfully. EQ created divides between people. Some folks just didn't have the time and patience to sit on a random camp for days hoping for a particular mob to spawn, or the dedication to level all the way through, or the nerve to go some place where death was on a stick but the rewards were awesome.

In modern MMO's, no one gives a shit about you. You're just another number. DPSer #129480. You're just an exact copy of all the other ones of your same level. Someone have something badass you don't have? Just a matter of time before you have it too. Join a group in a modern MMO no one even acknowledges you. When certain people would join my group in EQ, I immediately snapped to attention and it was "Yes, Sir!". Why? Because they knew their shit and they did stuff that I didn't have the balls to do and wasn't willing to risk.

And that is what modern MMOs are missing.

shabushabu · May 11, 2014

Erronius_sl said:
I wouldn't use the word"regressed", maybe"stagnated"would be a better word. No one has really shaken things up or succeeded at creating an entirely new paradigm. Even WOW design is strikingly similar to EQ1 design on a ton of points, people just tend to get hung up on a lot of minor stuff.

Classes being able to solo content is a fantastic example - it exists in both EQ1 and WOW, only WOW decided to go with more class parity as opposed to the EQ1 design of"certain classes can solo, but the rest of you retards are screwed". One would think that WOW allowing everyone to solo instead of just certain classes would be an improvement, yet we frequently hear people complain about this as if WOW screwed the pooch by doing so. Yet...I don't think I've ever heard any of the people who attack WOW for allowing everyone to solo ever say something like"Yeah, NO ONE should be able to solo, ever: NERF DEM DRUIDS, BARDS, NECROS, ETC". So in the end it seems like people are wanting to be able to selectively "break" a game instead of marginalizing how important that was by allowing everyone to do it. Which is fine, except for the minor issue being that people tend to whitewash this kind of thing and ignore the fact that the design itself was awful and that it was inherently broken to allow only certain classes to break content, all so that those people can have access to classes that allow them to do exactly that.

Even though at the time I thought that WOW was a huge departure from EQ1...and on a number of fronts, it was...over time I've come to realize that it's probably still similar enough to EQ1 design that a lot of our debates are largely meaningless. I don't think that the genre is stagnant because WOW was so different from EQ1 that a return to EQ1 design is what we need, I think the genre is stagnant because the opposite is true: even with the differences that exist WOW is still similar to EQ1, as is almost every other MMO that has come out in the last decade or so. The genre is stagnant because everything that comes out is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash, and playing the umpteenth iteration of a level, item and progression based MMO with only a few differences from other level, item and progression based MMOs is one of the most boring and soul crushing things that someone can do.

Honestly vanilla wow was great although as for classes, I would take vanguard classes, dungeons, vanguard/ddo dungeons with a wow world ( size matters) and wow like animations.. Rift almost got there IMO but screwed the pooch by limited racial starting areas, linear and single leveling path (no alts required ) and the shitty endgame content and crap dungeons.

shabushabu · May 11, 2014

Helldiver_sl said:
In my opinion it's not another EQ perse that folks are jonesing for, but rather the notoriety, respect, and entitlement they enjoyed in EQ. No other game has since reproduced that.

There are certain things that I miss from EQ that I wish mmos had, racial hatred and dynamic factions. Roll an Elf? Hated by Ogres. Roll a Dark Elf? Hated by Elves, and so on. Doing quests to gain friendship with a particular group that's KoS to you and opening up quest opportunities or new areas, and so on. I really miss that aspect of EQ. WoW had some of it, but it felt forced and seemed to have been integrated into the core progression. In EQ it was a side thing, and although Kunark expanded on it, it was so cool to meet someone who was friendly to a faction you normally hated.

But the thing about EQ that I miss the most which no other MMO has been able to reproduce since, is the feeling of importance I enjoyed. Getting whispers for help some place, people inspecting me and checking out what gear I had. I remember getting efreeti boots and the many people congratulating me. The first time I evaced a full group where everyone had a sliver of health left in Seb, and so on.

The death penalties, the grind, the drop rates, they all created a divide between the haves and have-nots. It was a game that rewarded risk. There was no instance running into Lower Guk. You wanted to have some of that pie, you had to invis/camo or something to get through the place and find the spot and hope the party had a spot for you, or coordinate with groups remotely and work your way down. It took major balls to do the things people did in that game and you gave respect. I mastered some crazy kites towards the end of it all, but I never quite mastered kiting a room, it was just not possible in my mind. After witnessing a wizard do it over and over (working on AAs) solo, I had to respect that guy. Personally, that was the "genius" of EQ. The shit people who had the nerve, the wit, the balls, and patience to do it and get away with it successfully. EQ created divides between people. Some folks just didn't have the time and patience to sit on a random camp for days hoping for a particular mob to spawn, or the dedication to level all the way through, or the nerve to go some place where death was on a stick but the rewards were awesome.

In modern MMO's, no one gives a shit about you. You're just another number. DPSer #129480. You're just an exact copy of all the other ones of your same level. Someone have something badass you don't have? Just a matter of time before you have it too. Join a group in a modern MMO no one even acknowledges you. When certain people would join my group in EQ, I immediately snapped to attention and it was "Yes, Sir!". Why? Because they knew their shit and they did stuff that I didn't have the balls to do and wasn't willing to risk.

And that is what modern MMOs are missing.

Well said sir.

shabushabu · May 11, 2014

Beastro_sl said:
What fucking crap.

I loved that place, was the only real WoW zone that endeared to me the way EQ zones did.

It's because dungeons have gotten stupid. In D&D it's about encounters ... Not trash mobs.. Traps need to come back and locked doors etc...as well.. Class related abilities that allow u to solve a special way and exclusive way is cool too

Vandyn · May 11, 2014

Helldiver_sl said:
In my opinion it's not another EQ perse that folks are jonesing for, but rather the notoriety, respect, and entitlement they enjoyed in EQ. No other game has since reproduced that.

There are certain things that I miss from EQ that I wish mmos had, racial hatred and dynamic factions. Roll an Elf? Hated by Ogres. Roll a Dark Elf? Hated by Elves, and so on. Doing quests to gain friendship with a particular group that's KoS to you and opening up quest opportunities or new areas, and so on. I really miss that aspect of EQ. WoW had some of it, but it felt forced and seemed to have been integrated into the core progression. In EQ it was a side thing, and although Kunark expanded on it, it was so cool to meet someone who was friendly to a faction you normally hated.

But the thing about EQ that I miss the most which no other MMO has been able to reproduce since, is the feeling of importance I enjoyed. Getting whispers for help some place, people inspecting me and checking out what gear I had. I remember getting efreeti boots and the many people congratulating me. The first time I evaced a full group where everyone had a sliver of health left in Seb, and so on.

The death penalties, the grind, the drop rates, they all created a divide between the haves and have-nots. It was a game that rewarded risk. There was no instance running into Lower Guk. You wanted to have some of that pie, you had to invis/camo or something to get through the place and find the spot and hope the party had a spot for you, or coordinate with groups remotely and work your way down. It took major balls to do the things people did in that game and you gave respect. I mastered some crazy kites towards the end of it all, but I never quite mastered kiting a room, it was just not possible in my mind. After witnessing a wizard do it over and over (working on AAs) solo, I had to respect that guy. Personally, that was the "genius" of EQ. The shit people who had the nerve, the wit, the balls, and patience to do it and get away with it successfully. EQ created divides between people. Some folks just didn't have the time and patience to sit on a random camp for days hoping for a particular mob to spawn, or the dedication to level all the way through, or the nerve to go some place where death was on a stick but the rewards were awesome.

In modern MMO's, no one gives a shit about you. You're just another number. DPSer #129480. You're just an exact copy of all the other ones of your same level. Someone have something badass you don't have? Just a matter of time before you have it too. Join a group in a modern MMO no one even acknowledges you. When certain people would join my group in EQ, I immediately snapped to attention and it was "Yes, Sir!". Why? Because they knew their shit and they did stuff that I didn't have the balls to do and wasn't willing to risk.

And that is what modern MMOs are missing.

I don't think it's modern MMO's, it's players. In order for what you described to happen, the player needs to be fully invested in the game and actually give a shit not only about their character but the characters around them. They need to care about the items, care about lore, etc. A vast, vast majority, including people here, do not. They barely care about the character they are playing, let alone giving fuck all to anyone else. It's just about getting to end game, consuming the content and moving on. That's why games like WoW are made. There's no such thing as 'status' in a game anymore. And your not automatically going to make that happen again even in a EQ reskinned game. Again it goes back to the players.

Tantrik · May 11, 2014

Vandyn_sl said:
I don't think it's modern MMO's, it's players. In order for what you described to happen, the player needs to be fully invested in the game and actually give a shit not only about their character but the characters around them. They need to care about the items, care about lore, etc. A vast, vast majority, including people here, do not. They barely care about the character they are playing, let alone giving fuck all to anyone else. It's just about getting to end game, consuming the content and moving on. That's why games like WoW are made. There's no such thing as 'status' in a game anymore. And your not automatically going to make that happen again even in a EQ reskinned game. Again it goes back to the players.

Yeah, no one ever cared about their characters in WoW, their guildmates, and certainly each server didn't develop it's own community of well-knowns and the notorious. Meanwhile everyone that ever played EQ named their first born child after their character....

Quaid · May 11, 2014

Before cross-server automated group assembly tools, WoW certainly allowed for players to gain a good level of notoriety/epeen. Never to the extent that EQ allowed mind you, but that's just because in EQ the game itself allowed you to be a bigger asshole or champion as you desired.

It's far more bland these days, and much more difficult to break out of anonymity.

Tantrik · May 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
Before cross-server automated group assembly tools, WoW certainly allowed for players to gain a good level of notoriety/epeen. Never to the extent that EQ allowed mind you, but that's just because in EQ the game itself allowed you to be a bigger asshole or champion as you desired.

It's far more bland these days, and much more difficult to break out of anonymity.

Why are you talking about the WoW of today? Obviously you aren't talking about the EQ of today.

And never the extent of notoriety/epeen that EQ did? Are you serious? Far more people know the names Elitest Jerks, Method, Pargon, Blood Legion than know the names of FoH, LoS, Afterlife. How could they not when EQ never broke 1million and WoW hit 12million and is still over 7million? Far more people know the names of Swifty than they do Thott.

EQ players, guilds, and the drama that surrounded them are important to you and your memories. Obviously you never had that same connection with WoW, or you'd have similar memories. I have played on a back-water server in WoW since Wrath launched in November of 2008, and there are names and guilds that are as notorious and story-worthy as anything I experienced in EQ. That's one of the things that is frustrating with the EQ-nostalgists...a huge chunk of your fondness for that game stems directly from the emotional memories and impressions left from playing it, and no amount of The Design will ever recreate that. Each game has to stand on its own in that regard.

Quaid · May 11, 2014

Tantrik_sl said:
Why are you talking about the WoW of today? Obviously you aren't talking about the EQ of today.

And never the extent of notoriety/epeen that EQ did? Are you serious? Far more people know the names Elitest Jerks, Method, Pargon, Blood Legion than know the names of FoH, LoS, Afterlife. How could they not when EQ never broke 1million and WoW hit 12million and is still over 7million? Far more people know the names of Swifty than they do Thott.

EQ players, guilds, and the drama that surrounded them are important to you and your memories. Obviously you never had that same connection with WoW, or you'd have similar memories. I have played on a back-water server in WoW since Wrath launched in November of 2008, and there are names and guilds that are as notorious and story-worthy as anything I experienced in EQ. That's one of the things that is frustrating with the EQ-nostalgists...a huge chunk of your fondness for that game stems directly from the emotional memories and impressions left from playing it, and no amount of The Design will ever recreate that. Each game has to stand on its own in that regard.

Hey friend,

I was in one of those top guilds in WoW. I was in one in EQ. I was one of the most well known players on Cenarius for years. I have a deep love for early WoW and I'm not some EQ nostalgia maniac - I know what I'm talking about here. And yes, I am serious. Sure, the audience is wider for WoW, and millions of players know the names of certain guilds/superstars to a degree that EQ could never hope to match. I'll give you that. I'm not talking about surface world-wide 'fame' though. I'm talking about individual players in their small server communities.

The systems in place in EQ simply allowed you to do more to 'gain reputation' as an individual on your server. You had far more power over other players. You could monopolize or block content for hours or days on end. You could grief other players to a far greater degree due to the nature of leashing, agro, and collision detection. Trades were done person-to-person rather than through an NPC menu etc etc.

Ya, in WoW you could gain guild notoriety by accomplishing world firsts, and online leaderboards/wikis/etc were far more evolved allowing guilds to get kinda 'famous', but you've never had as much power of other player's experience as you did in early EQ. That's just a fact, and has nothing to do with 'rose colored glasses' or whatever point you are trying to make here.

Mahes · May 11, 2014

Tantrik_sl said:
Why are you talking about the WoW of today? Obviously you aren't talking about the EQ of today.

And never the extent of notoriety/epeen that EQ did? Are you serious? Far more people know the names Elitest Jerks, Method, Pargon, Blood Legion than know the names of FoH, LoS, Afterlife. How could they not when EQ never broke 1million and WoW hit 12million and is still over 7million? Far more people know the names of Swifty than they do Thott.

EQ players, guilds, and the drama that surrounded them are important to you and your memories. Obviously you never had that same connection with WoW, or you'd have similar memories. I have played on a back-water server in WoW since Wrath launched in November of 2008, and there are names and guilds that are as notorious and story-worthy as anything I experienced in EQ. That's one of the things that is frustrating with the EQ-nostalgists...a huge chunk of your fondness for that game stems directly from the emotional memories and impressions left from playing it, and no amount of The Design will ever recreate that. Each game has to stand on its own in that regard.

Name jerks that you remember fondly and why they pissed you off so much. Not officers of a guild, as anyone can remember players from their own guild but somebody outside your clich?. There is no way that the reputation of WoW for a player was as strong as in Everquest except for the first two years, when a player could not change their name, server, race, color, class, faction, and sex. Even then though, a player could not be near as large a jerk as in Everquest because the mechanics and lack of really having to group made it more difficult.

It was about knowing the individual. Anyone can remember guilds but can you name the best and worst players individually in a guild? There was a time in Everquest when I knew players that were not even on my server, just because of their notoriety. That does not even include the server I played on where I knew multiple names from various guilds both casual and raid intensive.

kudos · May 11, 2014

I still remember that mother fucking undead rogue that struck fear into the alliance before battlegrounds came out.

In fact that mother fucker was STILL feared even after battlegrounds came out. I don't know how many battlegrounds people left after they saw him.

Pyros · May 11, 2014

Yeah the rank 14 grinders and the BRM camping assholes I think were pretty well known, server to server. A few individuals were known across servers like that hunter that was doing the speed leveling guides/runs and obviously Leeroy Jenkins but other than that it was a lot of the guilds more than individuals.

Also you meant clique, not clich?.

Mahes · May 11, 2014

Yes, I did. Sigh. No coffee = stupid human being in the morning.

TragedyAnn_sl · May 11, 2014

this thread feels like this right now:

etchazz · May 11, 2014

Tantrik_sl said:
Why are you talking about the WoW of today? Obviously you aren't talking about the EQ of today.

And never the extent of notoriety/epeen that EQ did? Are you serious? Far more people know the names Elitest Jerks, Method, Pargon, Blood Legion than know the names of FoH, LoS, Afterlife. How could they not when EQ never broke 1million and WoW hit 12million and is still over 7million? Far more people know the names of Swifty than they do Thott.

EQ players, guilds, and the drama that surrounded them are important to you and your memories. Obviously you never had that same connection with WoW, or you'd have similar memories. I have played on a back-water server in WoW since Wrath launched in November of 2008, and there are names and guilds that are as notorious and story-worthy as anything I experienced in EQ. That's one of the things that is frustrating with the EQ-nostalgists...a huge chunk of your fondness for that game stems directly from the emotional memories and impressions left from playing it, and no amount of The Design will ever recreate that. Each game has to stand on its own in that regard.

the difference is there wasn't any griefing/cock blocking going on in WoW because of instances. having everything in the world being contested is what made all the drama in EQ so fucking awesome. i was in the top guild on my server for years, and we absolutely battled the guild right on our asses for most of that time. we'd pull trains on each other, COH past each other, KS from each other, flip the fuck out on each other, to the point where the GM's would even have to step in on several occasions to try and make peace. we had to be at our best the entire time to stay one step ahead of them, and tried our best to cock block them so they couldn't get to the mobs we had on farm status until we were done with them. it was fucking awesome and the drama surrounding it made the game that much better. that is something that's missing from modern games, and don't give me the battlegrounds PvP bullshit, cause meeting another guild/faction in an instanced zone to grind out rep points isn't even fucking close to the same thing.

Vandyn · May 11, 2014

etchazz_sl said:
the difference is there wasn't any griefing/cock blocking going on in WoW because of instances. having everything in the world being contested is what made all the drama in EQ so fucking awesome. i was in the top guild on my server for years, and we absolutely battled the guild right on our asses for most of that time. we'd pull trains on each other, COH past each other, KS from each other, flip the fuck out on each other, to the point where the GM's would even have to step in on several occasions to try and make peace. we had to be at our best the entire time to stay one step ahead of them, and tried our best to cock block them so they couldn't get to the mobs we had on farm status until we were done with them. it was fucking awesome and the drama surrounding it made the game that much better. that is something that's missing from modern games, and don't give me the battlegrounds PvP bullshit, cause meeting another guild/faction in an instanced zone to grind out rep points isn't even fucking close to the same thing.

So not only is this type of enjoyment/nostalgia limited to a small group, it's further limited to only people in top end guilds who were racing for content. And then you want to know why games are not designed like this today.

Dumar_sl · May 11, 2014

It wasn't just racing/cockblocking - it was being in a zone with more than your group, a dynamic number of players, or themassivelypart of massively multiplayer.

Search

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee

Dyvim

Bronze Knight of the Realm

Helldiver

Bronze Knight of the Realm

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider

Tantrik

Golden Knight of the Realm

Quaid

Trump's Staff

Tantrik

Golden Knight of the Realm

Quaid

Trump's Staff

Mahes

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

kudos

Pyros

Mahes

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

TragedyAnn_sl

shitlord

etchazz

Trakanon Raider

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider

Dumar_sl

shitlord