Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Quaid_sl said:

Nobody has made a compelling argument in support of traditional vertical progression. There's been a lot of 'it should be this way because I think so'.

The players of EVE online, the only MMO with a steadily increasing population, disagree with them. Even EverQuest implemented horizontal progression through AAs (almost universally loved) a decade ago.

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I am pretty sure 'because it works' is a compelling argument in the real world.

tad10_sl said:

I am pretty sure 'because it works' is a compelling argument in the real world.

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No it isn't tad.

I would bet money that the primary thing that drives those budgets from the 25m to the 150m mark is almost entirely art/animations and questing(and related like voice acting) and unique zone designs. The design work itself is mostly a few people coming up with good or bad (mostly bad) ideas, often those changes don't really cost more than the alternatives. How much dev effort alot of the other stuff takes really depends on what engine they license, if its a major recode to add in player ownership for housing then ya housing is a no go in a small project, but that is the kinda stuff only brad knows atm.

Now ya if you have to go back to formula it can be costly because your design idea becomes unworkable at a late stage and you didnt notice it you might be more fucked as a small company.

Alkorin_sl said:

Do you enjoy arguing for the sake of argument? "Because it works" is on of the driving forces behind "people will spend money on this". You know, that thing that makes the world go round and puts food on most peoples' tables?

Just because it's tired and old doesn't mean that there is a marketable solution to replacing it.

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Do enjoy mediocrity? Because that attitude pretty much ensures a life of it.

Alkorin_sl said:

Trolling aside, people buy mediocrity, and this is how companies make money. They don't care about people like us. We are not normal consumers.

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Tell yourself I'm trolling if that makes it easier for you! But I'm not.

People buy mediocrity? Please give me an example. Since this is an MMORPG forum, how about starting there? We have the true innovators, like Blizzard's WoW, and then we have the mediocre imitators, putting out products with systems 'because it works!'. How is Rift doing? SWTOR? EQ2?... I'm sure they are 'getting by' and 'putting food on people's tables', but they are utterly forgettable and inferior experiences to the true innovator.

Quaid_sl said:

Tell yourself I'm trolling if that makes it easier for you! But I'm not.

We have the true innovators, like Blizzard's WoW,

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Ehhh?

Merlin_sl said:

Ehhh?

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Gonna provide evidence as to how WoW is not an innovative product, or just continue shitposting like you do in General?

Quaid_sl said:

Gonna provide evidence as to how WoW is not an innovative product, or just continue shitposting like you do in General?

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NM.............

Ya, that must be it, you're too smart to fall for trolling! Certainly it can't be that you're too stupid to formulate a rebuttal.

WoW has its (serious) flaws that detracted from some very important aspects of the genre, but to claim that the game wasn't groundbreaking is asinine.

Edit: nvm, enough derail.

Quaid_sl said:

Edit: nvm, enough derail.

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For the record there is room for innovation in leveling systems. I believe a flatter leveling system that is more like original ADD might be an improvement over the current system. Generally leveling works best if:

1. There are no gear resets with new expansions (flatter itemization). This allows family guilds to do the last expansions high end content while the uber guilds do the new high end content.
2. There are no gear resets with new expansions (flatter itemization)
3. Used in combination with a horizontal power systems like AA or other non-class ability skill system.
4. The levels are overall flatter. There was no need to go to 50 in EQ or Vanguard, or 60 in WoW,. I think it'd be interesting where the initial release had 21 or 25 or so as the max level, with equivalent content to Vanilla EQ. Flatter leveling means content lasts longer, while still letting the players and developers enjoy the benefits of a vertical leveling system.


I do think Blizzard really screwed up on its approach to leveling. The gear reset stuff meant that entire expansions of content were rendered worthless.

Quaid_sl said:

Tell yourself I'm trolling if that makes it easier for you! But I'm not.

People buy mediocrity? Please give me an example. Since this is an MMORPG forum, how about starting there? We have the true innovators, like Blizzard's WoW, and then we have the mediocre imitators, putting out products with systems 'because it works!'. How is Rift doing? SWTOR? EQ2?... I'm sure they are 'getting by' and 'putting food on people's tables', but they are utterly forgettable and inferior experiences to the true innovator.

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Challenged with the claim that mediocrity is often what sells, Quaid ends up citing several mediocre games he for some reason then admits probably did make money. Then, while lost in his own lust to troll others to prove they really are the idiots he believes everyone else to be, doesn't wait for the troll-bait he's set, instead choosing to jump right into the next argument he was setting up: that these mediocre, money making games weren't subjectively as good as the true innovator, Word of Warcraft. No doubt sparking a flurry of posting that will enable more of Quaid's shallow arguments and baseless attacks that allow him to thrive and distract others from the fact he once again just countered the very point he was trying to make.

A fascinating look into the mind of a mindless troll. Join us next time, 3 times a page depending on your forum settings, to see Quaid dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with him by using one-line 'nut-uh!' arguments or calling them all morons to ensure their jimmies are sufficiently riled enough to fall for his next bit of troll bait. You'll find it only here, on Mastertroll Theatre.

tad10_sl said:

For the record there is room for innovation in leveling systems. I believe a flatter leveling system that is more like original ADD might be an improvement over the current system. Generally leveling works best if:

1. There are no gear resets with new expansions (flatter itemization).This allows family guilds to do the last expansions high end content while the uber guilds do the new high end content.

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EQ2 at some point switched the way damage is calculated. It was recent, in the last year but my wife and I noticed that mobs now deal damage by percentages. What this means is older content is now undoable by smaller groups, solo'ers or people who duo because the mobs damage now scales up. So no matter how old the content is, the mobs hit for the same percentage as they originally did. Why in the world Sony thought this was a good idea is beyond me. Because the gear dropped is beyond useless, the only reason people would return to this content is for, /shock fun! But now unless you have the same number of people as the event originally required, you cannot do the content. Its design decisions like this that totally baffle me. Sony continues to be the greatest example of how NOT to run an MMO.

tad10_sl said:

I do think Blizzard really screwed up on its approach to leveling. The gear reset stuff meant that entire expansions of content were rendered worthless.

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I don't think they 'screwed up' at all. I think it has always been their intent to have a 'reset' every expansion release. It keeps barriers to entry very low for new subscribers, and keeps the treadmill ever running for current players.

tad10_sl said:

For the record there is room for innovation in leveling systems. I believe a flatter leveling system that is more like original ADD might be an improvement over the current system. Generally leveling works best if:

1. There are no gear resets with new expansions (flatter itemization). This allows family guilds to do the last expansions high end content while the uber guilds do the new high end content.
2. There are no gear resets with new expansions (flatter itemization)
3. Used in combination with a horizontal power systems like AA or other non-class ability skill system.
4. The levels are overall flatter. There was no need to go to 50 in EQ or Vanguard, or 60 in WoW,. I think it'd be interesting where the initial release had 21 or 25 or so as the max level, with equivalent content to Vanilla EQ. Flatter leveling means content lasts longer, while still letting the players and developers enjoy the benefits of a vertical leveling system.


I do think Blizzard really screwed up on its approach to leveling. The gear reset stuff meant that entire expansions of content were rendered worthless.

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Not really. Gear is the carrot people chase. A gear reset means there is a new carrot to chase for every gear slot. Most people play the game to chase the carrot.