Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Flipmode_sl said:

Dumar,

I know you guys all clamor for the first person camera view. The issue like I tried to say above is the first person cameras all suck. They don't give me a true first person view like looking through my own eyes. My in game view has no peripheral vision and I can't see past my neck in most games without manipulating the camera angle. In real life I have all that without even moving my head. So if they can create a better camera than sure, first person all the way. If not, third person please Brad.

Click to expand...

And third person view isn't a realistic, true-to-vision representation either. My guess is you just personally prefer third-person, probably for it's advantages, so are coming up with reasoning to support your personal preference. Just say you like it better and I can respect it. Because by your logic you should have huge blind spots in your third-person view behind your character (which is an idea), unless your peripheral vision includes looking out your brown eye as well.

It's cool. Just say you like third person better. Admit you don't like people sneaking up on your in pvp or some shit and don't want to have to turn around to look all the time. It's all good. Less people will call attention to just saying you prefer something for personal reasons than trying to make it into some huge 'realism' bullshit.

I mean, if I were to buy you two other monitors and a graphics card that wasn't shit so you could do a fuller first-person vision, would you then prefer the game be in first person?

popsicledeath_sl said:

And third person view isn't a realistic, true-to-vision representation either. My guess is you just personally prefer third-person, probably for it's advantages, so are coming up with reasoning to support your personal preference. Just say you like it better and I can respect it. Because by your logic you should have huge blind spots in your third-person view behind your character (which is an idea), unless your peripheral vision includes looking out your brown eye as well.

It's cool. Just say you like third person better. Admit you don't like people sneaking up on your in pvp or some shit and don't want to have to turn around to look all the time. It's all good. Less people will call attention to just saying you prefer something for personal reasons than trying to make it into some huge 'realism' bullshit.

I mean, if I were to buy you two other monitors and a graphics card that wasn't shit so you could do a fuller first-person vision, would you then prefer the game be in first person?

Click to expand...

Or take 3 less paragraphs to say over the shoulder third person view? Geez take a fucking Xanax.

Mechanics that support immersion just get lost with a focus on third. The camera movement when you swing a 2-hander vs a dagger, something sneaking up on you, freedom to design narrow, closed-in spaces.

I consider some abilities of third person almost cheating: looking around corners by moving the camera, zooming all the way out and basically seeing a helicopter view of the battlefield.

There's too many trade-offs just so you can see your character in shiny armor, which a paper doll takes care of anyway. An action game? Sure. A real RPG? No.

If you absolutely must have 3rd person, a good compromise would be to hide it in the mechanics of a class for a person that really wants it. A druid spell could summon a faerie or sprite that would be the 3rd person camera, outdoor use only, a more useful eye of zomm, etc. Bonus design points if the camera can die.

No matter what happens, I have to hand it to Brad for giving us all something to talk about again. These forums have been amazingly fun this week.

I'll be the one to confess up on the 1st person vs 3rd person view. Completely torn on it.

Played EQ at launch 1st person of course , and loved it , as most earlier crpg's were all from this point of view , now I was doing it in an mmo. Made it much more "worldlike". Once I used third person and got used to it , I was ruined by it. The situational awareness just made it where if you were the one playing in 1st person , while the rest of the group was 3rd person , it was painfully obvious.

And I'll even fess up and admit that if you give me third person view , I'll slump into using it even if I enjoy 1st person.

An odd compromise I'd say is have the options , design it making sure to take a wide first person view into consideration (not just a zoomed in third person) , and let folks choose which way. The wrench I'd throw in is some sort of minor bonus if you are in 1st person , call it combat focus buff or whatever you want.

You choose to tank in 1st person ? +10 taunt
Wizard in 1st person ? -10% to mobs resist rate
Ranger in 1st person ? +10% accuracy

And so on. Nothing game breaking , but something that would make even the min/max'rs stop and have to weigh the advantages of zoomed out .all over view of the field in third person vs the minor bonus to what your class is specifically good at.

It would be interesting to see which way folks would play if something was weighted against the inherit advantage third person gives you. (of course lengthy cooldown for switching views so no bouncing back and forth)

there's nothing like dungeon crawling in first person. it makes you feel like you're really there. unaware of what's around each corner, or perhaps sneaking up behind you. 3rd person kills that suspense.

etchazz_sl said:

there's nothing like dungeon crawling in first person. it makes you feel like you're really there. unaware of what's around each corner, or perhaps sneaking up behind you. 3rd person kills that suspense.

Click to expand...

No argument there at all. Just let me see what I would actually see with my own eyes in first person. That's my only gripe.

Also, Brad. Please print both of these out, plaster them in your studio office as a reminder to not lose focus:

We need a pool on when the kickstarter hits. I'm betting later than earlier. I was thinking this week but now I'm thinking they'll delay till last week in January at the earliest and possibly wait until Feb.

They want to:
1. Information about the kickstarter to fully flow out before they start it so they can have a good first day.
2. A video showing the combat and game features.
3. The pantheonrotf named lookup issue (points to SOE) to be fixed.

Aradune_sl said:

You know what would be killer if we could keep it all organized: a list of features you guys want to see, and, just as importantly, stuff you don't want to see. I realize that not everyone is completely on the same page, but we could still maintain a list and just note where people disagree and list the different paths people with differing opinions want us to go.

Any ideas on how we could do this? On this site? Or maybe use google docs? What do you guys think? Too crazy to keep it updated with so many people interested in Pantheon, or maybe something we can try and give it a shot?

Click to expand...

For my first quest on this forum I have done just that.

Here is a list of the popular community requested features from the past 80 or so pages, as well as some of my own idea's.

Community Requested Features

I will continue to edit and add to the list. It will be cleaned up over time.

bigdogchris_sl said:

For my first quest on this forum I have done just that.

Here is a list of the popular community requested features from the past 80 or so pages, as well as some of my own idea's.

Community Requested Features

I will continue to edit and add to the list.

Click to expand...

Very nice job!

bigdogchris_sl said:

For my first quest on this forum I have done just that.

Here is a list of the popular community requested features from the past 80 or so pages, as well as some of my own idea's.

Community Requested Features

I will continue to edit and add to the list.

Click to expand...

Great.

Flipmode_sl said:

Just let me see what I would actually see with my own eyes in first person.

Click to expand...

Like the back of your head, ala a zoomed in, over the shoulder third person? Just admit you want the advantage and laziness of third-person and be done with it. The whole 'not like I'd actually see in real life' argument is hilariously idiotic and about the worst 'realism' argument I've ever seen made.

Though, seeing the back of your head might actually be possible if you tried to pull your head out of your ass.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Like the back of your head, ala a zoomed in, over the shoulder third person? Just admit you want the advantage and laziness of third-person and be done with it. The whole 'not like I'd actually see in real life' argument is hilariously idiotic and about the worst 'realism' argument I've ever seen made.

Though, seeing the back of your head might actually be possible if you tried to pull your head out of your ass.

Click to expand...

You're an idiot. Really. Make some good points sometimes. Others are just nerd fueled, internet rage and vitriol to appear like a witty, sarcastic tough guy. It's time to put the keyboard down for a bit chief. Visit the rickshaw forum. It's more your speed.

And next time stop making assumptions. I concede third person is my preference over the shitty first person ones we have. You assumed its because of PVP and wanting to cheat. And you also assumed I don't have a computer capable of running eyefinity or surround. Just stop already. You're getting quite retarded.

I played EQ from a bit past launch til AO came out in first person and hated all of the third person views outside of taking stupid screenshot "selfies" doing goofy shit. AO and DAoC I found I really liked third person. Whenever I went back to EQ for probably the first 8-10 years I'd always play in first.

I'm not sure when it happened but at some point I started playing even EQ wholly in third person. Not because I care about seeing shit behind me so much as the fact that after playing so many third person games (I admit I play mmorpgs almost exclusively) I really stopped thinking of my character as "me". It's more like they are a nifty pet I want to grow into a badass.

Once that transition occurred first person views in mmos just started feeling more and more cheesy and cumbersome. I like watching my "pet" do shit. Having my screen bob unnaturally while two disconnected floating arms weave in and out of the screen just feels corny.

Oddly enough, FPS games (mostly planetside 2 as of late) don't bother me. So I'm assuming it's just what I am used to/expecting for that game type.

That said, I whole heartedly agree that 3rd person views from any reasonable distance do offer a huge advantage in a pvp environment. Or at least immersion breakage. So if that's intended to be something that shows up, first person only makes sense. If not, do both and let the third person folks deal with the crappy cameras in dungeons IMO.

Aradune_sl said:

What do you guys feel about a spell/ability system where you have a fixed number of slots, so even if you know 100 spells, you can only mem a few at a time. Or, do you prefer the 'as long as I have mana' I can cast what I want?

Click to expand...

I'm with most people and believe that there should be a set of prepared spells to add a tactical component to spell casting. However, why does it need to be one or the other? You could make a class or two have the ability to cast any spell from their spellbook but perhaps at an additional mana cost or cast time. Bards in EQ had songs (spells) but they had the advantage of multiple going at once which no other class had. That was a unique trait to that class and we would like to see more unique class traits in Pantheon.

You could also have a system where spell casters had a set of basic 'cantrip' spells which did not require memorization/preparation and had reduced, or eliminated, mana cost. Cantrips would be a few class specific basic spells that you as the designer would choose, perhaps basic heals or torch/light spells, etc. Players could then 'load out' a set of 4-6 more powerful spells of their choice.

Nice to see a lot of new blood being drawn here due to this game. We shall rise from the ashes!

bigdogchris_sl said:

For my first quest on this forum I have done just that.

Here is a list of the popular community requested features from the past 80 or so pages, as well as some of my own idea's.

Community Requested Features

I will continue to edit and add to the list. It will be cleaned up over time.

Click to expand...

GREAT WORK!
I approve of the list.

Also, I would love if you can add "make every NPC attack-able." to the list.