Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Jimbolini_sl said:

What about 2 years down the line and having to re run grey zones to get somewhere? Would you agree flying mounts remove that headache?

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No, at no point in a games life should the entire world become obsolete. I can't stand flying mounts and how the destroy worlds. If quick travel is what you are in search of, then ask for player variations (i.e ports, sow, and all that). And I am still confused on why an upgradable ground mount system couldn't help you get through grey zones? You could still move just as fast, BUT you are moving fast in the actual world, not above it. I hate to come off the wrong way, but flying mounts are about the worst idea for this game (imo of course).

Join the war against flying mounts!

Amaru_sl said:

No, at no point in a games life should the entire world become obsolete. I can't stand flying mounts and how the destroy worlds. If quick travel is what you are in search of, then ask for player variations (i.e ports, sow, and all that). And I am still confused on why an upgradable ground mount system couldn't help you get through grey zones? You could still move just as fast, BUT you are moving fast in the actual world, not above it. I hate to come off the wrong way, but flying mounts are about the worst idea for this game (imo of course).

Join the war against flying mounts!

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What if there were flying mobs that could attack you and knock you out of the air? Perhaps mobs of a level higher than whats on the ground?

Jimbolini_sl said:

What about 2 years down the line and having to re run grey zones to get somewhere? Would you agree flying mounts remove that headache?

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There are a million different solutions to that issue. Quick travel options with portals, flight paths, or whatever you want to call it. You can create items that will bring you to a certain outpost that is a boss drop clickie. You can have mage spells that open gates to certain points.

Doesn't mean you need to give people complete three dimenional free form flight. The problem is people with the ability to hover over or skip "dangerous" content and cherry pick targets in the open world. It completely invalidates stuff.

delirium_sl said:

What if there were flying mobs that could attack you and knock you out of the air? Perhaps mobs of a level higher than whats on the ground?

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You get into the problem that now the engine and your PC will have to draw and account for objects moving in the air above you. If you limit the amount of mobs above you, then you can easily just fly around them and then your idea doesn't solve the problem.

Dumar_sl said:

Mechanics that support immersion just get lost with a focus on third. The camera movement when you swing a 2-hander vs a dagger, something sneaking up on you, freedom to design narrow, closed-in spaces.

I consider some abilities of third person almost cheating: looking around corners by moving the camera, zooming all the way out and basically seeing a helicopter view of the battlefield.

There's too many trade-offs just so you can see your character in shiny armor, which a paper doll takes care of anyway. An action game? Sure. A real RPG? No.

If you absolutely must have 3rd person, a good compromise would be to hide it in the mechanics of a class for a person that really wants it. A druid spell could summon a faerie or sprite that would be the 3rd person camera, outdoor use only, a more useful eye of zomm, etc. Bonus design points if the camera can die.

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This! Make it a buff so it can be debuffed in certain areas. That or first person only. This game needs to have a selling feature that makes it stick out from the norm and 1st person only would be perfect. If it becomes too middle of the road on features I don't see why anyone would pick it over the allready saturated market. The dream for me is 1st person, no instances, no fast travel, no auction house and death to hurt. Theses are selling points to me while in other games the opposite is true.

Draegan_sl said:

There are a million different solutions to that issue. Quick travel options with portals, flight paths, or whatever you want to call it. You can create items that will bring you to a certain outpost that is a boss drop clickie. You can have mage spells that open gates to certain points.

Doesn't mean you need to give people complete three dimenional free form flight. The problem is people with the ability to hover over or skip "dangerous" content and cherry pick targets in the open world. It completely invalidates stuff.

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I understand that argument, I just did not understand the difference between portals, opening gates, etc vs. flying mounts in old zones when it comes to immersion and making the world relevant with old content.

delirium_sl said:

What if there were flying mobs that could attack you and knock you out of the air? Perhaps mobs of a level higher than whats on the ground?

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I have heard this solution before, but here is my reasoning why I dislike it.

1) I honestly think that ground and boat mount systems provide more depth to the game, flying will make both of these obsolete.
2) You can add flying mobs to deter people from flying, but honestly who wants to see skies full of killer pigeons every time they look up?
3) On top of the ground/boat mounts, i think players NEED to be a source of quick travel or speed enhancements. This pushes the socialization aspect of the game.
4) Think of games where flying is the main source of travel, you almost never see people on the ground or in the actual zones. It sucks to see devs invest so much time making these amazing zones for us to explore only for them to become vacant/obsolete chunks of land as everybody flies safely over theme.


Honestly there are so many reasons why flying is a bad idea now, tomorrow, and always. I mean don't get me wrong here, the idea of flying around on some huge dragon is awesome but the harm it will do in the long run makes it a very bad idea. I want this game to bring back socialization, make people go to one another for ports and speed spells, force them to actually travel by ground or water where they can see and engage with other players. So many good games have fallen into this pit, I would hate to see Pantheon ever do that. Honestly I bothers me that it is even a stretch possibility.

Aradune_sl said:

I can say at this point that were we to ever have flying mounts then it would be a stretch goal. Flying and getting flying done right is some serious work and can't be rushed.

As for 1st and 3rd person views, you can choose either, and we are architecting the world the same as EQ and VG (so in confined quarters 3rd person becomes less useful, but then outdoors you can back the camera out and use it during travel to make sure nothing is chasing you, etc. )

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Sounds perfect to me...

Draegan_sl said:

You get into the problem that now the engine and your PC will have to draw and account for objects moving in the air above you. If you limit the amount of mobs above you, then you can easily just fly around them and then your idea doesn't solve the problem.

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True, but you can do that with out having flying mounts. In EQ we hugged the zone wall and/or had SOW or even better bard speed. Not every area in a zone is going to have mobs so there will always be ways to get around them.

You could also add in anti-aircraft style towers that some mobs man and can use like ballistas to shoot you out of the sky. I remember in VG beta when they first were testing flying mounts, i was handed a wyvern and hopped on it and took to the skys. I flew into an area where I was hated and yes, was shot out of the air. At that point the minute you got hit by somethign you auto dismounted. But they hadnt implemented the auto parachute so I fell to my death. Many lols were had by me

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:

I completely agree. If a mob is going to use a weapon, they should be USING THE WEAPON. If they don't have a weapon visible in the fight, then they should not be getting the benefits of that weapon. In other words, a mob who is not holding a weapon should NEVER show that they are doing weapon damage. It should be fist, kick, swipe, bite, etc damage.

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Yep, totally agree.

Amaru_sl said:

I'd actually prefer Feb, it always takes a solid month to start catching up after the holiday spending.

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That's also when the first tax returns start to come in for U.S. residents. The only problem is just waiting that long!

delirium_sl said:

True, but you can do that with out having flying mounts. In EQ we hugged the zone wall and/or had SOW or even better bard speed. Not every area in a zone is going to have mobs so there will always be ways to get around them.

You could also add in anti-aircraft style towers that some mobs man and can use like ballistas to shoot you out of the sky. I remember in VG beta when they first were testing flying mounts, i was handed a wyvern and hopped on it and took to the skys. I flew into an area where I was hated and yes, was shot out of the air. At that point the minute you got hit by somethign you auto dismounted. But they hadnt implemented the auto parachute so I fell to my death. Many lols were had by me

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My main question here is, with the amount of obvious draw backs of flying mounts and the amount of other/better ways we can travel quickly (all which keep us on the ground with other players), what is the need for flying? Do we really want to see the team invest that much time and energy into finding the magic formula for adding flying without destroying the world? If one day they could find some magical solution to the flying epidemic then I am all for it, but for now I'd rather see time invested else where.

For me the question of flying mounts goes back to something brought up earlier in the thread, low level zones should have the odd high level mob in them. Give high end players a reason to go back to the low zones. While you're there bashing in a snake with a rusty sword you should see the top end guys with the fancy shields and golden helmets doing their thing, maybe helping them find the big mob that killed you in one hit earlier.

Flying mounts skip all that, you just float over head until you get where you need to be and drop down.

The game should constantly try to force players together, to share space and to communicate. You can still have conveniences but I think they work best when they are given to a small subset of players instead of everyone. I'd prefer no flying mounts but if they are going to be there, why not give them to just one class and let them carry passengers. Druid-ish types are animal people, they have enoughwhateverto ride a pegasus and everyone else just gets thrown off.

Amaru_sl said:

My main question here is, with the amount of obvious draw backs of flying mounts and the amount of other/better ways we can travel quickly (all which keep us on the ground with other players), what is the need for flying? Do we really want to see the team invest that much time and energy into finding the magic formula for adding flying without destroying the world? If one day they could find some magical solution to the flying epidemic then I am all for it, but for now I'd rather see time invested else where.

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I can answer from my perspective (Using Eq2 as example)

I zone into a Vesspyr Isle and need to get across the zone. I skip all the USELESS trash mobs that have zero chance to drop anything or serve any purpose whatsoever.
If trash mobs had some value, then I could see the point, but why waste my time on these mobs I have killed 100 times before when all it does is slow down a simple quest run?

(Again, just my opinion)

Amaru_sl said:

My main question here is, with the amount of obvious draw backs of flying mounts and the amount of other/better ways we can travel quickly (all which keep us on the ground with other players), what is the need for flying? Do we really want to see the team invest that much time and energy into finding the magic formula for adding flying without destroying the world? If one day they could find some magical solution to the flying epidemic then I am all for it, but for now I'd rather see time invested else where.

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Oh i fully agree that there are more important things than flying mounts. I don't think the are that important, but I also think there are ways they could be implemented that aren't game breaking is all. I definately agree that there are more imporant things to focus on first and flesh out. I also agree we need a good ground mount system and boat system too. But even ground mounts should only be able to run at top speed for a limited amount of time. If you limit the usage of the mounts, then you can create spells that certain classes have that can either speed you up like SOW or maybe extend the stamina of your mount to make it run faster longer.

Another thing that came to mind though not regarding mounts but I missed it from EQ. Voice Graft and Bind Sight. Make it so!

Orsenfelt_sl said:

For me the question of flying mounts goes back to something brought up earlier in the thread, low level zones should have the odd high level mob in them. Give high end players a reason to go back to the low zones. While you're there bashing in a snake with a rusty sword you should see the top end guys with the fancy shields and golden helmets doing their thing, maybe helping them find the big mob that killed you in one hit earlier.

Flying mounts skip all that, you just float over head until you get where you need to be and drop down.

The game should constantly try to force players together, to share space and to communicate. You can still have conveniences but I think they work best when they are given to a small subset of players instead of everyone. I'd prefer no flying mounts but if they are going to be there, why not give them to just one class and let them carry passengers. Druid-ish types are animal people, they have enoughwhateverto ride a pegasus and everyone else just gets thrown off.

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Totally agree with this!

Orsenfelt_sl said:

For me the question of flying mounts goes back to something brought up earlier in the thread, low level zones should have the odd high level mob in them. Give high end players a reason to go back to the low zones. While you're there bashing in a snake with a rusty sword you should see the top end guys with the fancy shields and golden helmets doing their thing, maybe helping them find the big mob that killed you in one hit earlier.

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Yes! And those mobs should have important quest pieces for high-level characters to further encourage returning to the lowbie zones.

Jimbolini_sl said:

I understand that argument, I just did not understand the difference between portals, opening gates, etc vs. flying mounts in old zones when it comes to immersion and making the world relevant with old content.

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What don't you understand? Player cast summons or portals require at least one person to travel the world. Some games force multiple people to activate a summons. Some games, in the past, made those spells very rare and difficult to acquire. In all three instances, the game world needs to be traveled/manipulated to get people into area. It's also limited.

Flying mounts allow players to hover above the ground, safely, and come down to kill one NPC, get out of combat, and run away or move to the next. With gathering tradeskills, it allows players to dip in, gather, and move on. It invalidates the world.

It has nothing to do with immersion from my point of view, it's more about not giving players tools to game the system.

Dumar_sl said:

Okay, explain the mechanics of putting mounts in the game, say at level 20, while at the same time, having a buff like SoW.

It will render SoW next to worthless outdoors, which means that's one less way people will interact. Another design decision that will lead to the overworld being a quiet wasteland full of people passing each other by on mounts at upper levels.

No.

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Well, here is one way to answer that provided in this very thread, maybe you should be more reasonable just like that poster:

Caliane_sl said:

If you are not building the world with flying mounts in mind in the first place, I would highly recommend you cut the idea out entirely.
Flying changes how the entire layout of the world is handled. And either you built for that, or you didn't. adding it later, will break all the content prior.

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Yea tagging on flying mounts afterwards doesnt yield a good result, either make the entire world with that in mind or just say No to it. Imo just say No.

In the same vein I would still be in favor if the game is first person only, would grudgingly accept a close shoulder-cam and really dislike fully featured 'zoom out into RTS mode' 3rd person. Even if its just outdoors. I'm also bitter enough to assume "3rd person view design" will creep into dungeons.

Creslin_sl said:

Mobs can't always drop the stuff they are holding, its just fact.

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That's quite a statement. Mobs can easily always drop what they are holding, either a yak or Sulfuras, or if that item isnt part of the loot drops on that spawn the mob instead drops a fine steel sword or shattered hammer fragment. Stuff has trash drops anyway, just make the vondor stuff broken weapons. I mean, if you arent going to have vendor stuff that would be a different thing but which game doesnt have that?

A lot of flying mount talk going on. In theory you can "fix" any of the countless issues with flying mounts, but for a small KS team I find this unreasonable. Let's all just agree that flying mounts are the devil and should be discussed no further.