Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

goishen · Feb 25, 2017

etchazz said:
The whole "our generation can no longer play for 8 plus hours a night, so you can't design games like that anymore" is so fucking dumb it's unbelievable. Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but there are people on this planet younger than you, they're called kids, and these kids play video games just as much and as long as we used to when we were kids. Can I play 8 hours or more a night anymore? Nope. Does that mean the game should be catered specifically to me and my limited play time? Of course not. I wouldn't expect them to.

I'd still like to see a game where there is contested content in the game, punishing as fuck, loot that is so rare I'd be willing to make sacrifices to false gods just to obtain it, and takes me months and months to reach max level. Why? Because I've played the game that was the opposite of all of these things. It was called Warcraft, and I was bored as fuck.

The main problem with this isn't really a generational thing, it's more of an emotional thing. "Do I feel like I have made an impact?" If it's sitting grinding out mobs with millenials? Nope. Millenials have their own way of doing things. Right or wrong, you can't deny them that.

EDIT : And it's our generation that taught them that. The 99% of people that didn't get to go on raids, taught their kids that 1. Raiding was fun. 2. But only if you were allowed to go. 3. It should really feel as though you've made a difference. That's why all of those Asian MMO's are designated as Asian MMO, instead of just MMO's. Asians love grinding. I don't know why.

I can log in to to WoW, spend half an hour there and feel like I've made a difference. Sure, it might only be to Sonia Brightfart, and her 10 bear ass collection quest, but still. I helped her create the most beautiful collection of bear asses this side of the Mississippi.

Dullahan · Feb 25, 2017

Muligan said:
I don't want to get into a generational thing but the truth is the EQ target audience had different expectations of gaming. Prior to EQ, most people were use to investing a decent amount of time into games. It didn't matter if you played table top D&D or grew up on The Legend of Zelda, you played for hours and stuck with a game for a pretty significant amount of time. Now, EQ took that to the next level and tapped into people's drive to be geared up, max level, etc. but I don't think that's appealing to demographics that floods WoW. The generation the played EQ has less time and everyone younger than us was raised on instant gratification in gaming. Sure you have some Elder Scroll, Final Fantasy peeps out there but even then these games can be beaten in a matter of a week or two.

I think everyone really has a lot of valid points and truth from all perspectives. I think it's up to the game to decide what determines success. I also believe that more people are looking for something a bit "more" than what modern MMO's are offering. However, even then it would be a niche audience if you determine it by numbers. A good game is a good game bottom line but Pantheon has to decide if 500k-1m is a success because those sales interpret to 350k-550k after the first 30 days probably and you get you first set of updates to lock them in and start growing. If that doesn't work you have to give the masses what they want but i'm not even sure that will work as long as WoW is enjoyable.

Overall, you have to tap into the next generation of gamers and grow a new player base. WoW essentially did that but we just happen to support it. Our generation really makes up a small fraction of their numbers even if you take all of EQ, DAoC, etc. at their best.

Personally I think Pantheon needs to address the niche audience and target not only the old school but some of the new that might want to see what it's all about. We'll have to give a little probably in terms of some features but I don't think you necessarily have to instance everything and put in raid fingers. I think the desire for a community and some challenge is back but it can't be stifling either as many players have no idea what early MMO's are like.

If there's one thing I believe MOBA's and games like Overwatch have done is bringing back a little more community and the reliance on other people's to do their job and do it well.

I don't think people have changed at all, even if the expectation has become instant gratification. That kind of design has not done well though outside of one game, and one game alone.

There just isn't anyone making games like that anymore, not because it's not what people want or it "wouldn't work today", but because they've been so busy trying to replicate the success of WoW. Once a quality game comes out that gives people a reason to pour time into it, people will play it long-term.

I hope Pantheon will be that game.

Daidraco · Feb 25, 2017

Good lord, the amount of people on this forum that will become cynical as fuck if Pantheon fails to catch an audience! Im one of them, too.

Im in the camp that thinks you can instance raid content and also have the opposite. You have your raid finder difficulty bosses instanced, a mix of instanced and non instanced for normal difficulty bosses and your heroic and Mythic ala. ToV be your treasure trove non instanced content. The mix can be done, it just has to be done well. Then, server changing content should be character locked and instanced. Phasing afterwards to keep the locked characters in their alternate reality. The keeper was the only time I felt like I ever truly missed out on content in EverQuest.

IE. Just gate shit by difficulty or time invested. Boss A needs 90 Fire Resists. Boss B needs you to play DDR Begginers. Boss C needs both DDR Beginners and 90 Fire Resist. Boss D needs 120 Fire Resists and DDR Normal. etc.

etchazz · Feb 25, 2017

Dullahan said:
I don't think people have changed at all, even if the expectation has become instant gratification. That kind of design has not done well though outside of one game, and one game alone.

There just isn't anyone making games like that anymore, not because it's not what people want or it "wouldn't work today", but because they've been so busy trying to replicate the success of WoW. Once a quality game comes out that gives people a reason to pour time into it, people will play it long-term.

I hope Pantheon will be that game.

Exactly this. The problem isn't that gamers have changed, the problem is that every MMO since WoW has been fucking terrible. Give people a good game that they want to invest time into, and they will. I highly doubt at this point that Pantheon will be that game (hope I'm wrong), but I'm sure eventually a game will come along where the devs just make the game they want to make, and don't bother looking at spread sheets, pie charts, and focus groups, and finally just say, "fuck it, this is the game we want to make, and this is how we're going to make it. If people don't like it, too bad."

Vinjin · Feb 25, 2017

etchazz said:
Exactly this. The problem isn't that gamers have changed, the problem is that every MMO since WoW has been fucking terrible. Give people a good game that they want to invest time into, and they will. I highly doubt at this point that Pantheon will be that game (hope I'm wrong), but I'm sure eventually a game will come along where the devs just make the game they want to make, and don't bother looking at spread sheets, pie charts, and focus groups, and finally just say, "fuck it, this is the game we want to make, and this is how we're going to make it. If people don't like it, too bad."

I think Pantheon can be that game based on what we've heard from the VR team thus far. Time will tell if it sees the light of day and holds true but I have faith based on their progress and growth thus far.

Muligan · Feb 25, 2017

etchazz said:
The whole "our generation can no longer play for 8 plus hours a night, so you can't design games like that anymore" is so fucking dumb it's unbelievable. Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but there are people on this planet younger than you, they're called kids, and these kids play video games just as much and as long as we used to when we were kids. Can I play 8 hours or more a night anymore? Nope. Does that mean the game should be catered specifically to me and my limited play time? Of course not. I wouldn't expect them to.

I'd still like to see a game where there is contested content in the game, punishing as fuck, loot that is so rare I'd be willing to make sacrifices to false gods just to obtain it, and takes me months and months to reach max level. Why? Because I've played the game that was the opposite of all of these things. It was called Warcraft, and I was bored as fuck.

Not what i'm saying and you actually said something very similar to my point. I'm simply saying that if you equate success to being 10+ millions subs you can't rely on our demographic because even at our peak that's half a million people. So while our demographic certainly play games like LoL and Overwatch, you have to rely on other demographics so that impacts game design. Everyone here was talking about how to create a raiding experience. My point was that you can't take a linear, one style approach that satisfies a niche group of the gaming community even if that's my personal niche. To my other point, Pantheon has to decide what is successful. If you want to draw in the other demographics you may have to create/establish an experience that does not align with EQ or VG. I may be wrong but overall point is that this really comes down to Pantheon's goals. We can express our preferences, wants, and desires but the end of the day there are a number of things to consider based on Pantheon's definition of success. I've seen a whole lot of games promise the moon, get deep into the development phase, and then chicken out because they wanted to make the money that satisfies the investors.

etchazz said:
Exactly this. The problem isn't that gamers have changed, the problem is that every MMO since WoW has been fucking terrible. Give people a good game that they want to invest time into, and they will. I highly doubt at this point that Pantheon will be that game (hope I'm wrong), but I'm sure eventually a game will come along where the devs just make the game they want to make, and don't bother looking at spread sheets, pie charts, and focus groups, and finally just say, "fuck it, this is the game we want to make, and this is how we're going to make it. If people don't like it, too bad."

Gamers have changed... they always change and every year a new breed of gamers arrive at the scene. You said it yourself, there's other people on this planet called kids that play videos games. There's an entire audience with purchasing power that if you want to buy-in to you project you have to appease. I'm not sure how familiar with people 10-20 years younger than you but a game that requires 8 hours a night just to buff up, wipe 3-5 times, only to get a kill that they didn't win a drop might not be their cup of tea. That's all i'm saying. I'm agreeing with you but again, my concern at this point is that Pantheon has talked about the game they want but eventually it will come down to what makes the profit (or all least what profit they're willing to accept).

However, you are spot on the every MMO since WoW has been a swing and a miss. Everyone saw the dollar signs that WoW showed the world that could be made in a MMO and so many companies/publishers (some with very solid IP's) rushed half-baked, unfinished, shallow games out the front doors. Many of them probably got their quick money grabs but it flooded the MMO market with a load of mediocrity.

Muligan · Feb 25, 2017

Dullahan said:
I don't think people have changed at all, even if the expectation has become instant gratification. That kind of design has not done well though outside of one game, and one game alone.

There just isn't anyone making games like that anymore, not because it's not what people want or it "wouldn't work today", but because they've been so busy trying to replicate the success of WoW. Once a quality game comes out that gives people a reason to pour time into it, people will play it long-term.

I hope Pantheon will be that game.

You may be right... I've always felt that it would work today but again my concern is that no one in the gaming world thinks it will work to at a least achieve the profit they're looking for out of the gate.

I'm probably not articulating my points very well and it's also probably at little PTSD from the last decade of MMO's. I personally think it will work and I think there's enough people out there to make it successful. I said it in my original post, it can happen but is Pantheon brave enough to make this type of game when it comes down to the end of it all? I'm hoping they do and will but thus far, no other company has toughed it out to the end.

I'm certainly old school and will play an old school game but i'm thinking someone will have to come up with an idea that is somewhere in the middle. I just hope the game I want is somewhere in there.

Dullahan · Feb 25, 2017

Just to clarify, I'm not even saying every game should be made like EQ! I think it's fine there there's games that appeal to a different audience. Some people truly do not have the time or desire to compete over contested content. However, I think people underestimate just how engaging and addictive a game like EQ would be with gamers today: a time when it's considered more normal to be a gamer than it was in 1999. That idea that you actually have to work for your rewards. Sometimes you're lucky, but other times success takes time. When it comes, it's a straight shot of dopamine. That simple philosophy was the reason EQ was referred to as EverCrack.

For good or bad, people have not suddenly become immune to that kind of thing.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Feb 25, 2017

etchazz said:
Give people a good game that they want to invest time into, and they will. I highly doubt at this point that Pantheon will be that game

I don't think Pantheon will ever be a game for average gamers, it will never break a million subs, and I don't think even the devs think it will be. The were clear right from the start that they weren't going to do that. Every other MMO has already done exactly this and mostly they suck because of it. Pantheon is deliberately aimed a niche audience, and no other big MMO has ever done that. All that matters is if they satisfy that niche audience. If they do a good job of it, it could have hundreds of thousands of addicted rabid fanboy players and be a big success because of that. If it fails it will be like Vanguard and start with an ok amount and then everyone is gone in the first month.

wilkxus · Feb 25, 2017

Dullahan said:
There just isn't anyone making games like that anymore, not because it's not what people want or it "wouldn't work today", but because they've been so busy trying to replicate the success of WoW.

Well said. It is risky and you need deep pockets to try.

Dullahan said:
Once a quality game comes out that gives people a reason to pour time into it, people will play it long-term.

Personally I would not get my hopes up too high in terms of success. I have hopes for *a* release at this point. While the possibility for Old School success is there and people playing have not changed the market and competition certainly have. And it is the market and competition that makes the battle so tough today compared to 1999 EQ, even for a decent game.

The nature of the competition has evolved significantly. Any decent successfull game will face many more challenges because there is so much fierce competiton for peoples' attention and *screen time*. Not just from TV and other internet games (which are better and much more numerous) but cell phones etc. Your chances for exposure are greater (to get attention) but the length of exposure is shrinking significantly. You would need something truly disruptive to change that, and whatever Pantheon is, it certainly is unlikely to be disruptive.

etchazz said:
I'm sure eventually a game will come along where the devs just make the game they want to make, and don't bother looking at spread sheets, pie charts, and focus groups, and finally just say, "fuck it, this is the game we want to make, and this is how we're going to make it. If people don't like it, too bad."

Exactly.Do not be greedy worrying about who you will loose, but satisfy those who can sustain you.

Stick to their vision.
Stick to niche.
Stay humble. Make the core group game work and run a tight, small ship.
Ignore raiding except for minimal effort with spare resources.
Make it good, make it fun!

We already know the EQ model has easy wiggle room to bolt on some cheap poopsocking raid type content lol.... EQ proved that well for at least the first 2-3 expansions

If the 5% of poopsocking crowd consumes the group content and minial raid content then leaves fast, at least they had fun for the ride. And you only loose the minority that are raiders fast, the rest of the majority you milk for subs while they enjoy the game at a slower pace.

VR can consider trying for more (raid or other content) if they are still standing a few months after release.

wilkxus · Feb 25, 2017

Dullahan said:
That idea that you actually have to work for your rewards. Sometimes you're lucky, but other times success takes time. When it comes, it's a straight shot of dopamine. That simple philosophy was the reason EQ was referred to as EverCrack.

For good or bad, people have not suddenly become immune to that kind of thing.

Very true. However there is a lot more EQ type crack around (games) and other crap to suck peoples attention away. EQ got a free ride the first time around because of the old school nature of entertainment back then. Just looking at teenagers for example, social media and cell phone screen time alone suck up more teenager time a day now than they ever watched TV for. Game screen time is going to be much shorter today.

Perhaps the crotchety geezers (niche) they can count on.... lol.... but the rest of the demographic, the above applies IMHO.

Zaide · Feb 25, 2017

I think some of you may overestimate the age gap and how younger players approach MMO's/games. I'm 26 and I have a lot of friends in the 18-28 range atm who are excited for Pantheon. When I talk to them about EQ they really love how it sounds and they think the idea of guild v guild PvE is awesome but there are two things that stop new people from enjoying EQ, the first is obviously the graphics. The second is that at level one the combat system is just press A for auto attack.

This is the same generation that's also playing the Dark Souls games and enjoyed it. They're the same kids who also grew up grinding out Pokemon for countless hours to get those level 99's and stomp their friends. I think if they are willing to do things like that then they will also enjoy a "hard" mmo that requires some grinding but rewards you for your effort.

TBH I think if you did a full HD conversion of Everquest, changed the name and released it again as Classic+Kunark it would get a million subs. The graphics stop 99% of players at the door.

Muligan · Feb 25, 2017

Zaide said:
I think some of you may overestimate the age gap and how younger players approach MMO's/games. I'm 26 and I have a lot of friends in the 18-28 range atm who are excited for Pantheon. When I talk to them about EQ they really love how it sounds and they think the idea of guild v guild PvE is awesome but there are two things that stop new people from enjoying EQ, the first is obviously the graphics. The second is that at level one the combat system is just press A for auto attack.

This is the same generation that's also playing the Dark Souls games and enjoyed it. They're the same kids who also grew up grinding out Pokemon for countless hours to get those level 99's and stomp their friends. I think if they are willing to do things like that then they will also enjoy a "hard" mmo that requires some grinding but rewards you for your effort.

TBH I think if you did a full HD conversion of Everquest, changed the name and released it again as Classic+Kunark it would get a million subs. The graphics stop 99% of players at the door.

Agreed... but will Pantheon stick to their guns. I'm strictly playing devil's advocate and looking back at the last ten years of MMO's. I keep telling people, that I think people are ready for this and they want it. I hope that's true as it's hard to really take our circles and know for a fact that it represents the current and potential MMO community.

I don't necessarily overestimate the age gap but i've become more realistic with the MMO companies and their tendencies to listen to the squeaky wheels. For as many people that you and I know that would enjoy the second coming of an EQ-esque game there are 2-3 people on reddit and game forums that really cause a problem. I hope i'm wrong that they're the greater population. I hope I'm wrong that Pantheon and even other games will cave to their demands and complaints as I think you are spot on in the fact that the timing is right and the people are right for a game like this to hit the shelves. However someone else made an excellent point, it's going to take a little risk on their part.

One thing that I believe people do overlook from a business perspective is how much EQ grew. You consider how many people played EQ at release and how many people were really into the PC gaming scene, that's incredibly impressive. To grow from 100k-200k to over 500k (from a much small pool mind you) is an incredible accomplishment in terms of growth and percentages. The scene is set. WoW has exposed the world to MMO's by the tens of millions and now we have over 10+ years of mediocrity behind us. Pantheon may not replicate the success of WoW but I hope they are willing to accept 2-3 million something to be proud of as I think it is completely possible.

Skanda · Feb 25, 2017

You've lost your god damn mind if you think this game will actually have over a million subs beyond MAYBE the first month. I doubt it'll even break 100k on it's first month let alone maintain that many.

Daidraco · Feb 25, 2017

I would imagine with the current team, it wouldnt take many accounts to reach solvency or better. If they can create a good cash shop that doesnt ruin gameplay, all the better too. In the two months I played BDO, with box purchase, I spent 170 bucks on that stupid game.

Zaide · Feb 25, 2017

Kilsin recently said they would have no cash shop, not even for cosmetics etc. Not sure how set in stone that is. I've personally never minded cash shops especially if they're just cosmetic trash.

For those who missed it they have cosmetic items that drop from mobs (Items w/o stats but can be overlaid just for visuals) but players can toggle whether or not they see cosmetic items or just see characters in their actual gear. Seems solid to me, but funnily enough there were a few butthurt people on the forums still.

Muligan · Feb 25, 2017

Skanda said:
You've lost your god damn mind if you think this game will actually have over a million subs beyond MAYBE the first month. I doubt it'll even break 100k on it's first month let alone maintain that many.

Yeah, let me clarify. I believe a game like we are describing has the potential to hit those numbers. Just trying to emphasis that IF a game took the risk, game companies can't start wrecking their plans and visions just because they don't have 10-12 million subs.

Again I think the time is right for that type of MMO and if they're willing to stick to their guns it will grow just probably not to a very high ceiling.

Vinjin · Feb 25, 2017

Daidraco said:
I would imagine with the current team, it wouldnt take many accounts to reach solvency or better. If they can create a good cash shop that doesnt ruin gameplay, all the better too. In the two months I played BDO, with box purchase, I spent 170 bucks on that stupid game.

Not just no to any kind of cash shop for this game but hell fucking no. Tie everything inside the game to the sub and the sub includes everything in the game.

goishen · Feb 25, 2017

What you're all describing is a game of ideas. While Brad might have those ideas, they can't be patented. So, it's just a matter of time before someone comes out with a better, cheaper, quicker, and cleaner version of what you had. It's what WoW did. Except WoW didn't go, "No, you know what? Fuck all of you newbs. Git gud." I mean, they did in other games, but not WoW.

Fuck, there are plenty of millenial starving developers out there, aching for a chance to hit it big. And they can, and will, make the game that I'm describing using Pantheon as its backbone.

Dullahan · Feb 25, 2017

I don't think they should go so far in the opposite direction that they entirely neglect raiding. Just because it's a group-focused game, doesn't mean raiding doesn't serve it's purpose.

EQ had the model right, imo. That model was, for the most part, that things got progressively harder and more risky. It wasn't harder so much in the mechanical sense, as it was in the cooperative sense. A player can start out soloing. After a while, they need someone else. Eventually they need groups. After that they need more and more people to kill the hardest content. That content also had progressively longer spawn timers. People and time were the criteria in EQ more than anything else.

The harder content has a place, and that's keeping people playing while they are waiting for everything else to be developed. The reason why you don't want to instance stuff like that, is because it defeats it's purpose. That being, to keep people playing. It's a carrot on a stick. When you can't have a guaranteed mob every spawn, and a guaranteed item, it keeps people coming back.

Ideally, you want just enough raid content to keep that 10-20% of the playerbase happy with something to strive for.

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Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

goishen

Macho Ma'am

Dullahan

Golden Knight of the Realm

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm

etchazz

Trakanon Raider

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider

Muligan

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Muligan

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Dullahan

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wilkxus

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Zaide

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Muligan

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Skanda

I'm Amod too!

Daidraco

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Zaide

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Muligan

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Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider

goishen

Macho Ma'am

Dullahan

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