Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

delirium_sl

shitlord
217
0
Just wanted to say I hope there is a Necro class. I can live with out many thing, but a game with out a necro would be very dissapointing. I have a question about Kickstarter donations though. That is some of us cannot donte a big chunk of money at one time, but might be able to do several small donations over a period of time. Think of it as a money DOT lol. Anyway lets say they have a beta access teir at $100 donation and while you cant donate the whole $100 at one time, maybe you could donate $25 every 2 weeks. Would they total up all the small donations to equal that $100 to get you the beta access, or do they look at them as just 4 $25 donations? Never really donated to a kickstarter so not sure how it works exactly. Thanks.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Just wanted to say I hope there is a Necro class. I can live with out many thing, but a game with out a necro would be very dissapointing. I have a question about Kickstarter donations though. That is some of us cannot donte a big chunk of money at one time, but might be able to do several small donations over a period of time. Think of it as a money DOT lol. Anyway lets say they have a beta access teir at $100 donation and while you cant donate the whole $100 at one time, maybe you could donate $25 every 2 weeks. Would they total up all the small donations to equal that $100 to get you the beta access, or do they look at them as just 4 $25 donations? Never really donated to a kickstarter so not sure how it works exactly. Thanks.
I think they stack so over the course of the KS you would get credit for the $100 donation.. Brad would know..
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,986
13,559
I don't understand how anyone can say pulling was stupid and doesn't make any sense. Draegan you play LoL and you play it a lot. People get baited and pulled away from their groups ALL THE TIME. And these are humans! Why does it seem so impossible that you can distract and separate enemies from their groups? It's a basic battle tactic. Bring back pulling.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Pulling was fun for the pullers.

Everyone else was back at camp pulling their dicks.
What did you play again? Every class had or did something that was fun for them.. If we start removing fun features that make people want to play and enjoy those classes we are left with shit..
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
The porting bit , if you in any way give some sort of automated function on demand , in this example an NPC port/portal stone to another side of the world that is something that is normally a class ability , make it expensive as all hell. Make it where the rich bitch enchanters who have been selling KEI for months and have mounds of plat , the in game 1% , even still try for a few mins to find a friendly druid/wiz to donate to port instead of paying the high cost.

Basically anytime you provide an option to do something that is a class ability of another player, make it where actually , gasp , talking to strangers and actually trying for more than 30 secs , is well worth your time. Constantly encourage , STRONGLY encourage , player and class interdependence. If they still want to pay the large NPC travel port cost so be it then.

Pulling was fun for the pullers.

Everyone else was back at camp pulling their dicks.
Yeah , fuck that socializing and occasionally actually talking in group while someone is pulling , we need more rushing through combat , fast paced stuff where no one ever talks in game on am mmo. There's not enough games out there that do that or anything.......
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,986
13,559
Pulling was fun for the pullers.

Everyone else was back at camp pulling their dicks.
What version of EQ did you play? Because on my shaman I certainly wasn't back at camp "pulling my dick". I was waiting for that inevitable "Shit big pull incoming, get ready". If the puller was good you had a steady stream of solo or duo pulls without much if any down time and you had to manage your mana bar. If the puller was terrible you had bigger breaks but you also had bigger pulls. It was always fun finding out just what "big pull incoming" meant when they finally brought the mobs back to camp.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
25,448
37,590
Or that "oh shit" moment when you see like 4-5 mobs? But you dont panic, well maybe a little, but somehow using your skills, root parking them, etc, you somehow squeak by. But then you have to med for like 30 min because everyone is oom.
 

delirium_sl

shitlord
217
0
Ive been on both sides of the fence as the puller and the person waiting for the pull. I think part of why it worked in EQ is cause while the monk or whoever was pulling, the rest were taking that time to med up as much as they could. Also gave people time to socialize. Used to annoy me being the puller and trying to hold a conversation in text at the same time lol. I would say more often I prefer to have someone else pull while I say back, cast Voice Graft on my pet and made it talk lol. Scared the crap out of many newbs with that spell :)
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
What version of EQ did you play? Because on my shaman I certainly wasn't back at camp "pulling my dick". I was waiting for that inevitable "Shit big pull incoming, get ready". If the puller was good you had a steady stream of solo or duo pulls without much if any down time and you had to manage your mana bar. If the puller was terrible you had bigger breaks but you also had bigger pulls. It was always fun finding out just what "big pull incoming" meant when they finally brought the mobs back to camp.
I was going to add that.. I remember lots of times the puller would just make it back low on health and the healer would get a heal off.. That would normally pull aggro to healer and tank would have to work his ass off.. Plus CC would step in. Normally made for a good holy fuck when things were over..
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
Pulling/splitting was mostly unintended, but it's a large part of what made Everquest what it was(for me at least). Pulling for raids was cool, but really, doing solo or group stuff that was challenging and keeping up with respawn, while trying to pullsafely and efficiently. That was probably the most fun aspect of EQ for me, as a monk.
I think those two aspects are something that were lost with WoW and have really affected the genre a great deal. In WoW, when you look at a fight, all you think about is how to beat it. In EQ, usually, defeating the fight wasn'tas biga deal as killing the mobefficientlyand safely, so you could continue in your grind or goal or protect your status in your camp/dungeon/raid from other people. That focus on "difficulty" vs "efficiency" has a huge impact on every other aspect of play in the game.

"Efficiency" play makes it more about the strategic, or long term goals of the characters and not the short term goals of the fight. By making something relatively easy, BUT extremely cost heavy if it's screwed up, you create an environment where preparation are the major aspects of "difficulty", rather than twitch-reacting speed. And I think that lends itself far better to MMO's, because it forces the majority of the difficulty to be in the realm of communicating with your group mates, and working together--rather than attempting to master just your individual task, which tends to be far more complex in a game that focuses only on discreet/tactical difficulty.

Edit: here is a long post from when I talked about effeciency vs difficulty in the EQN thread.

EQ's difficulty was more of an efficiency model--kind of like D2, except far more group dependent. The efficiency model started to be dropped with WoW (Actually EQ, when raid caps were put in), but WoW vanilla actually kept a lot of the components of it up until the end. After TBC though, it was completely gone, all abandoned in favor of a "difficulty" paradigm. And that had a lot of pros, but a lot of cons too--I really think the move away from efficiency based difficulty really hurt, ironically, the accessibility of MMO's--which was the complete opposite of WoW's intention. The fact is, Vanilla bosses in WoW, up until Nax, were VERY, very easy. The difficulty really came from two things, managing large groups of people, in order to maximize group/buff interaction and role execution (Making sure auras were stacked, buffs were done, class types were positioned well) and efficiently dispatching impediments to bosses--IE trash clearing. Even guilds full of mediocre or bad players, as long as they were organized to kill trash very quickly and execute their very narrow set of buffs/auras/jobs, could kill the strongest bosses--because the difficulty wasn't really on them. It was more on a core group of organizing officers, and management.

EQ used that kind of system almost exclusively. Bosses were a joke. But managing people? It took a lot of effort. You could pretty much tell how good a guild was, not by it's foot soldiers (Common members, except for how their gear gave them advantages) but by how they were organized, how their raid leaders could exploit positioning, buffs, pulls, and individual class abilities to really diffuse any personal difficulty in an encounter. Essentially, in EQ, and even in early WoW, as long as you had a strong core group of highly organized officers/management, and then a bunch of warm bodies who were able to show up on demand, when needed, you could raid the most difficult content and be successful.

That's what I refer to as efficiency based raiding--it's not about how well the healers perform, rather it's about how well the healers are managed so they execute simple tasks in an efficient manner. It's about managing time, not so much skill. So becoming better is more about using less time, less people, and being more efficient. You can make things easier by increasing any of those (And lets face it, when it comes down to it? A player can usually find more time, or more people to play with but getting more skill? That's rare.)

That all ended with WoW's swap. Raid groups became smaller, and at first, many officers/management welcomed this, because it was HARD tracking and managing so many different people. And then buffs/auras/debuffs because more generic, less stack-able. They were weakened, made raid wide, and most of all far less exploitable by group composition. And both of these things sound good on paper. But what they ended up doing was decreasing the "fudge" room in any encounter. They transferred the difficulty of encounters from people who managed the raids, down to individual players in raids. (More so than previously).

And I think this really hurt a lot of casual players. The fact was, you couldn't even bring the soccer mom, or the pot head rogue anymore, because their role was too large. If they screwed up, it was too noticeable. You had less wiggle room to let good management and organization make up for their poor play. You couldn't have a slot split between two people who played 50% of the time, you needed a full time raider because there was too much to learn. You couldn't alter the groups and adapt to the specific boss to squeeze out more DPS--that was set in stone. You couldn't slightly stack the raid with more of a specific kind of debuff--that was now all homogenized. You couldn't position people better, to allow for more DPS in X or Y time period--everyone now had to be fluid because of all the variables in scripting. And, perhaps most of all, you couldn't just tell someone "okay, your job is just do X"...Because with less people, everyone had far more responsibilities and with more variables, everyone was required to learn more in terms of reaction, you needed people to be there more often to learn it, too--in the end, ironically, it was far, far less casual friendly, because the bar for being in a decent guild went from "warm body", to "super dedicated player who can execute complex tasks."

And so we got "modes" to change difficulty...but how does activating "super easy loot mode" make everyone feel about the game? Yeah...exactly. They go to get their loot and walk away feeling empty. It was a richer experience when even a bad player, but someone who was socially friendly and could be flexible about what the guild needed, could join a guild, and actually do fights that had some "fame" to them. They didn't have to put an * by their accomplishment and say "I did it...but in derp mode.)

I think early TBC kind of struck a good balance between an efficient raiding model and a difficulty one. But I just wish that a game would go back an really explore a nearly full efficiency based model again. Have tons of dungeons with only minimal scripting, and even if you use instancing--just don't have raid caps. If people want to waste their lock out on only getting 2 pieces of loot for 50 people? Then the inefficiency of their zerg is the detriment, they don't need an artificial cap. If people cheese encounters to kill them? Who cares, the point of an effeciency system is not just to kill the boss, it's more about the loot. A zerg guild gets less.

Also, design encounters that reward social engineering, and management--make designing a raid to exploit the shit out of certain sets of class buffs, and group composition, like a little mini-game of itself (Like stacking a magic card deck). And don't contain those buffs to a few classes, have hundreds of variables. So a Rogue/Shaman/Enchanter could form a ridiculous combo, but at the same time a Wizard/Enchanter/Paladin could form another ridiculous combo. Have buffs change and alter depending on auras, group composition, interactions. Why? Because that kind of difficulty will be tackled by naturally more "hard core" players, the leaders of guilds, the officers, the raid leaders. People who KNOW more about the game. You've siphoned a bit off difficulty off the "lowest" tier player and transferred it to the hardcore--and this allows the lowest common denominator to play with more hardcore players, in the SAME encounters, but with different roles.
 

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
Late to the party and all. Welcome back Brad, make a good world for me please, I'll make the game myself inside it. That's all I care about.
 
437
0
Shit has to be balanced, though. I dont want most of my playtime wrapped up in traveling either. Some of you are fucking idiots with this shit. Give it a rest already. I dont want to get a message from my buddy across the world that I have to trudge through just to get to him to group up only to realize the playtime is over or the group hes in is disbanding now because it took me a hour to get there. Is it even worthwhile to try to get to him? Then the next day do the same.

There was a reason they added all that shit in EQ eventually because the more zones and continents they added, the more time it took to get places, duh.

Im all for a large world and it feeling like one. But I also dont want my entire play session wrapped up in travel either. Looking for a druid or wizzie at the off hours, begging them to port me around.

There was also the reason people stuck to like 4 zones to level up as well when Kunark released because the rest of the shit was not worth it, Remember? Or is it you are looking at the EQ through rose colored glasses?
This is a good point. The designers need to be thoughtful when connecting zones. There were plenty of fun places to go in Kunark but most people didn't because there was no easy entry: no wizzy tower, no druid ring, no boat dock. I'm 100% for forcing the intereaction between players, but I also want zone connections to be accessable, that way if I have to run it, I can. Also, lots of rings and towers are a must.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
It was a good accident then. Because it allowed more social interaction. Something thats integral to a mmorpg. And something that is blatantly missing from tdays mmorpgs which auto group you together from other servers, then you mindlessly run through an L shaped instance and then rinse and repeat with some other people you dont know, and dont care to know and not even say one word most of the time, unless someone fucks up and then you just yell at them for being an idiot.
One has nothing to do with the other. Your assumptions are awful.

1) WOW dungeon design after Vanilla was pretty much shit. I think everyone can agree with that.

2) You're never going to have a game where people suddenly start talking to each other and become friends. Ever. Even in WOW dungeons back in the day with BRD UBRS or whatever, that were big dungeon crawlers, I didn't care about the random people in my group, neither did I strike up conversations with them unless someone fucked up and we had to either explain the fight or figure out what went wrong. Otherwise I just watched TV like Tad wants to be able to do.

Pulling doesn't make a break a dungeon, class/combat mechanics do as well as the design of the dungeon.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
I hope this game doesn't have pulling, it's the dumbest mechanic ever. It's a left over of an age where tech and programming were limited. Aggro ranges are stupid. If a bad guy can see you, he should be doing something about it.

The only pulling mechanic that I think is valid is baiting a mob to chase you from some location over to your group from around a corner or something.
This is an excellent point but I don't know if it is out of scope for this MMO. While I always liked the strategy around pulling, as Draegan points out there are more realistic and better ways to "infiltrate" a dungeon. Again, not sure if out of scope, but I think this is a big deal and the MMO that gets this right, will really change the experience.. its mob AI and it needs to be much much better in MMOs.

Think of the utility posibilities around this, many spells can be used to distract, mezz, sleep, blah blah blah to "split mobs up" at times.

Still however, sight should be aggro IMO. I love the idea of needing to go in silently... hell even have a wizard have to maintain a silence spell or something at times... think environment, reality and simulating it better than what has done before and I think you can have a system with more strategy more thinking and skill than even pulling provides.