Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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11,780
That was probably the most fun aspect of EQ for me, as a monk.
Sorry to break it to you, but everyone else was bored and it was often their least fun aspect. Socializing aside, of course. But I don't want being bored in a game to be the reason I'm socializing.

Now, what about a system where you're a monk and you have a pre-combat ability that can paralyze a mob on incoming, helping with CC? Still fun enough, even though it's not your own pulling minigame?
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
But it's not a pulling issue.. It's an AI issue. Those same aggro ranges existed in other games where pulling was not in. That's why I don't understand his comment. It's not pulling it's the AI. Leashing mobs to AE burn was no more fun than pulling IMO.
You are correct this is an AI issue, but i think Draegan is thinking out of the box ... at least that is the way I took what he said. If the AI improved to where sight = a reaction from mobs... dealing with silencing those mobs and preventing those reactions ( replaces pulling )... however, in order to do this right you need a) interesting reactions and b) interesting abilities given to classes to deal with em.

But i agree, being in a room starting at mobs that don't attack you is lame..unless there is a game mechanic in place ( i.e. mobs that only hear and don't see ) however, if Pantheon does not try to innovate here, i am ok as long as the game is group-centric.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,376
1,077
I think the best direction is designing a game where you CC first, then engage. Give more classes pre-combat CC tools. Your enchanter can mez a mob, sure. But your rogue can lock one down pre-pull. Your wizards has a magic cage or whatever on long cooldown or that's out of combat only. Your shaman can root. Etc. Make many/most of the pre-combat abilities. You then have combat designed where you come to a group of mobs, plan an attack, pick targets, synchronize your watches, execute cc (including which mob the tank will grab), and now you've got to kill them in order, deal with any early breaks, and are on the clock to kill them before they're all free from mez.

There were plenty of situations in Vanguard that went down like this, and it wasn't dumbed down or too easy. It took far more coordination since more players were involved than simply huddling together waiting for the monk to bring a single mob. Which was the not-the-greatest-mechanic in EQ. When your tank pulled 4 mobs and your enchanter had to scrabble to CC them, it was fine. When someone was trying to lull knowing it had a chance to resist and bring multiple mobs, things were fine. The only type of pulling I think that needs eliminated is the kind where you bring a single mob, then scamper off to bring another, because that makes it too easy for a group to just stand there camping one spot bored until they have to tackle a single mob which is also boring.

Get more people involved. Make it so you're moving to the next set of mobs. Make it so you've got things you have to pay attention to, like kill speed and cc breaks and order of kills. Seems like more fun, more challenge, more cooperation, more movement. More of everything that wasn't good about the monk-FD-pulling-single-mobs syndrome as the rest of the group waits bored.
To go to the MOBAs again, I like how they handle certain roles being good initiators (pullers in a sense). But that the mechanics of that initiator and how a group uses its abilities to win a fight after engage all come together in a overall strategy. Enigma, tuskdude and Pudge in DOTA are all good at initiating fights, but the way they do it is completely different.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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11,780
What did you play again? Every class had or did something that was fun for them.. If we start removing fun features that make people want to play and enjoy those classes we are left with shit..
This is true, to an extent.

I played a rogue. Pulling everyone's corpses was fun for me. The difference is either way, the group wouldn't be having fun. I could add utility that was fun for me, and while they were still bored as they were dead, they were bored less and back to having fun faster.

I also played a BST, Ogre. Ummm.... I guess my 'fun' feature was getting to summon my giant bear and have everyone either bitch or laugh or both.

I think the problem with the FD splitting in particular is half the time it didn't actually add fun later. It often took time to get one mob that then trivialized combat. Your only risk was the monk messing up and dying too far away or the person timing respawns to not check the clock.

And half the time FD pulling wasn't even necessary. A group could kill faster, get more exp, have more fun, by not waiting for FD pulling or to find an FD puller. People FD pulled because it was easier, safer, and what became expected. And we keep talking about not wanting easy, dumbed down game mechanics. FD pulling was basically one of the EQ mechanism that dumbed down the game, and usually by a large margin.
 
437
0
I played a rogue. Pulling everyone's corpses was fun for me. The difference is either way, the group wouldn't be having fun. I could add utility that was fun for me, and while they were still bored as they were dead, they were bored less and back to having fun faster.
One thing EQ lacked was enough locks and traps to make the Rogues' and Bards' special abilities more relevant. There should have been some sections of some dungeons that you just couldn't get to unless you had a lock-picker there.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
We stopped using monks as pullers soon as bards got their aggro dump. They pulled MUCH faster, and could bring 2-3 mobs at a time. Then mez the mobs and line them up to get killed in order. Good bard had mobs in camp at all times, and only stopped if the healer needed mana.

Fuck monk pulling honestly. Slow, and boring as hell for everyone but the monk.
 
437
0
We stopped using monks as pullers soon as bards got their aggro dump. They pulled MUCH faster, and could bring 2-3 mobs at a time. Then mez the mobs and line them up to get killed in order. Good bard had mobs in camp at all times, and only stopped if the healer needed mana.
Fading Memories was a really amazing AA. It took the powerlevel of bards to a whole new level.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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Uh, you can cc in combat in WoW...
You couldn't sap an in combat mob when I played, and I was referring more to the want to limit CC in such silly ways. WoW limited CC, initially the developers said they didn't want to trivialize content, and then all they added was trivial content that you could AE the shit out of so CC wasn't used anyway.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Speaking of AAs what do you guys think about the alternate advancement like it was in EQ?

I personally enjoyed it for the most part. I know it had its inherit problems later, but I liked how you always had something to do. Not everything amounted to getting more +3 gear somewhere.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
You know all this talk of Aggro and stuff, makes me think of DDO. DDO had on sight aggro for most of the game, but DDO benefited from additional things like SPOT / Listen checking, which mobs could do and you can hide from with spells, abilities etc. So there was a system in place other than TAP mob. This i would love to see in Pantheon in some form... and its not too far of a stretch from what exists today.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
I think the best direction is designing a game where you CC first, then engage. Give more classes pre-combat CC tools. Your enchanter can mez a mob, sure. But your rogue can lock one down pre-pull. Your wizards has a magic cage or whatever on long cooldown or that's out of combat only. Your shaman can root. Etc. Make many/most of the pre-combat abilities. You then have combat designed where you come to a group of mobs, plan an attack, pick targets, synchronize your watches, execute cc (including which mob the tank will grab), and now you've got to kill them in order, deal with any early breaks, and are on the clock to kill them before they're all free from mez.

There were plenty of situations in Vanguard that went down like this, and it wasn't dumbed down or too easy. It took far more coordination since more players were involved than simply huddling together waiting for the monk to bring a single mob. Which was the not-the-greatest-mechanic in EQ. When your tank pulled 4 mobs and your enchanter had to scrabble to CC them, it was fine. When someone was trying to lull knowing it had a chance to resist and bring multiple mobs, things were fine. The only type of pulling I think that needs eliminated is the kind where you bring a single mob, then scamper off to bring another, because that makes it too easy for a group to just stand there camping one spot bored until they have to tackle a single mob which is also boring.

Get more people involved. Make it so you're moving to the next set of mobs. Make it so you've got things you have to pay attention to, like kill speed and cc breaks and order of kills. Seems like more fun, more challenge, more cooperation, more movement. More of everything that wasn't good about the monk-FD-pulling-single-mobs syndrome as the rest of the group waits bored.
I see where your going with this, and to some extent I agree. But again, your starting to lean to the, "lets speed things up, less downtime, more efficiency, lets stay busy, keep moving".....and I can't help but think the idea is already going a place we already decided may be quicker, yes, and may keep the players attention, yes, but ultimately, also leads to speeding the game up to much. And then its just a push and were GOING GOING GOING, keep moving, keep the pace up, no downtime, no stopping etc.....It would have to be balanced or were right back to where we started, the very reason we are not happy with the newer game mechanics.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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Speaking of AAs what do you guys think about the alternate advancement like it was in EQ?

I personally enjoyed it for the most part. I know it had its inherit problems later, but I liked how you always had something to do. Not everything amounted to getting more +3 gear somewhere.
I don't mind AA type grinding at all. I don't see an issue with someone who has been playing a class for 5 years being inherently more powerful than someone who has been playing 6 months. Want to catch up new friends? Powerlevel and twink the shit out of them. Another reason to not have restricted items.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
@popsicle you either have class interdependence and people get bored sometime waiting for a pull, a port, a rez, a sow, etc. Or you make an mmo where everyone can do everything and there is no class uniqueness or flavor or connection. I'll take the former.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
You couldn't sap an in combat mob when I played, and I was referring more to the want to limit CC in such silly ways. WoW limited CC, initially the developers said they didn't want to trivialize content, and then all they added was trivial content that you could AE the shit out of so CC wasn't used anyway.
Sap is one of the very few that can't be done in combat. Most of WoWs cc is just like other MMOs though. Fear, sheep, hex, traps, stuns, horrors etc. I agree though it is all pointless really since single group content is so easy.

I like useful cc, and I like pulling IF that pulling is more like bards in EQ. Slow, tedious pulling like monks is garbage. I understand wanting time to socialize, but sitting on your ass while the monk slowly breaks a camp can stay in 1999 where it belongs.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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I never thought of monk pulling as slow. And usually it was the entire groups job to break camp, you had to move together fighting as you went and making sure to beat the respawn timer or dodge roamers. Maybe in raids it was slow, but in the group game is was perfectly fine. Though here's a question, why did the Monk class get feign death? Aren't monks traditionally noble warriors who lead lives of purity and truth? It makes more sense for a taming class that deals with wild bears and shit to be skilled at faking death.

Traditionally the speed of pulling is based less on class and more on individual skill levels. A bad bard was still going to be slow and shitty at pulling.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Sap is one of the very few that can't be done in combat. Most of WoWs cc is just like other MMOs though. Fear, sheep, hex, traps, stuns, horrors etc. I agree though it is all pointless really since single group content is so easy.

I like useful cc, and I like pulling IF that pulling is more like bards in EQ. Slow, tedious pulling like monks is garbage. I understand wanting time to socialize, but sitting on your ass while the monk slowly breaks a camp can stay in 1999 where it belongs.
It's not just about being social.. It's about options in a group focused game.. You need options.. The bard won't always be there.. Nobody is forcing you to group with the monk, etc... You take the good, you take the bad..you take them all and there you have?! EQ!
 

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD
<Gold Donor>
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Some of you keep talking about how certain mechanics in EQ were fun for the person doing them, but "boring" for everyone else. Well you know what? In an MMO (a game that you're playing for hours on end at a time), there need to be ups and downs--lulls in the fun. Humans thrive on relativity for contrast and context, among other things. Without bad, there's no good, there's just "it." Despite those small periods being "boring" for the rest of the group, the overall experience was still fun, otherwise nobody would be playing. And the (Rogue/Monk/whatever) performing the task was having a blast. Then, the game reaches another point and one of the other players gets to be in the limelight, and have his awesome fun times, while everyone else drops down to "neutral" or something (what I'd classify your "boring" as). It's very similar to good story/movie writing. Those graphs have been posted in various threads on here, you know, the ones that look like roller-coasters? Yeah, that's good design. If I weren't so lazy I'd go find the picture and attach it. "But you are lazy, right?" "Oh, don't get me started!"


This shit absolutely has to be taken as a whole, and not just individual pieces. Taking it piece by piece is how you end up with modern day WoW. How can you guys not see that?

I'm digging Lithose's posts. It's all basically what I understand about games, but lack in eloquence to express on a message board.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,329
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This shit absolutely has to be taken as a whole, and not just individual pieces. Taking it piece by piece is how you end up with modern day WoW. How can you guys not see that?
Well said. As I said before, learning pulls sucked for the raid, but once it was learned, good pullers never left the group bored. As a melee, it sucked having to find a bind or a port, but that doesn't mean I want those classes to have those abilities.