Brad, this sounds really terrific, man. Visionary Realms is really playing my tune.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Jimbolini
Semi-pro Monopoly player
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Jimbolini
Semi-pro Monopoly player
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And not to change the subject...but Damn!
This game just launched with 200k first day? Presentation looks pretty good. (Brad might want to check it out)
Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians by Playdek Kickstarter
This game just launched with 200k first day? Presentation looks pretty good. (Brad might want to check it out)
Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians by Playdek Kickstarter
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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Good deal! I'm going to see who I can actually find hanging around. I know I can get in touch with people from Conquest (for those who remember the Sleeper incident) and possibly some other guilds. Where's Elidrin these days? He was posting here and I believe he was running the Ranger Mafia or some kind of fan site.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Here's the problem and there is no getting around it. This game is being designed for a generation that played EQ back in 1999. Well, the average age of people who played EQ at that time I'd say was probably 18-20. It's 15 years later. That same player is probably in his mid to late 30's now. The odds are is that player doesn't have the time commitment anymore to invest in that type of game.
This is the boat I'm in. I'd love to see a game like EQ again. But I'm also very realistic, knowing I'll never play that game for any long length of time due to time. Plus, I just don't have that kind of patience anymore. I don't think it's a reach that a good majority are like me, especially on this forum. The second obstacle this game is going to have is everyone has an idea of what defines 'hardcore' and believe it or not, those ideas are not the same. Everyone has this romanticized idea of what Everquest was but I think it varies greatly depending on who you ask.
This is the boat I'm in. I'd love to see a game like EQ again. But I'm also very realistic, knowing I'll never play that game for any long length of time due to time. Plus, I just don't have that kind of patience anymore. I don't think it's a reach that a good majority are like me, especially on this forum. The second obstacle this game is going to have is everyone has an idea of what defines 'hardcore' and believe it or not, those ideas are not the same. Everyone has this romanticized idea of what Everquest was but I think it varies greatly depending on who you ask.
Hateyou
Not Great, Not Terrible
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That is a very well done Kickstarter IMO. I may back that one. Edit: Not just because the kickstarter is well done, because the game sounds interesting
Kickstarter is kind of an oddity, I don't think you can directly compare it to prepaying for other services. You aren't buying gift card to a restaurant here, you are buying one to a restaurant that might open 3 years from now. It's kind of like modern day patronage for artists.
For the most part I think people get some value outside of the product they bought. If this was SOE offering these packages for a game not even in dev yet I bet almost none of you would be buying even if you thought it had an equal chance as pantheon of turning out to be the game you want to play.
Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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That's a completely different scenario. If you pre-order a car and they don't deliver in the end, you get your money back. That won't happen on KS.
I don't understand what you mean by "that kind of time". I am exactly what you described, yet I will make the time to play this game. Will I raid teh hardcorez again like in 2001 when I was in a PST based raiding guild, raid from 1am to 6am my time and sleep during the day again? Absolutely not. However, the big strength of EQ was that it was fun at all levels, something that died with WoW when levels 1-59 were just the road to the real fun and grouping became obsolete while leveling. In pretty much every modern MMO I've tried, it was actually impossible to group for leveling. When trying to form a group, the most common response was a max level player offering me help through the content because he thought I was having trouble advancing on my own rather than just wanting to group because.
So if I have only one day a week to play for 3-4 hours, then I will. And I will have fun doing so, because grouping in Highpass keep, Unrest, Runnyeye or soldunga was FUN. It was a fuckton of more fun than running on your own through Silverpine forest, collecting cancer hearts from shitty wolves that died in 10 seconds and the only threat to you was that roaming level 25 elite werewolf, and that one leashed so you could run away. And even that small threat was patched out by Blizzard because suits said so.
So yeah, we won't have the time to grind out the game in and out. We will have time to have a bit of fun, and we're more than willing to pay a sub for that kind of fun again while we wouldn't even play shit like WoW if it was F2P.
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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While I agree with you I think there will be enough changes and modifications (modernizations if you will) that will not make it unplayable for people like you, me, and many others on the boards. Looking back, we probably didn't have to invest the time we did to be successful, we did because we could at the time. If everyone is willing (which they never seem to be able to) to level at slower paces, progress at a slower pace, and just generally be willing to work with people's schedules, it can work. When I was hardcore raiding, you had to make x amount of raids per week or you got shelved. You had to have x AA's or you were moved off the raid team. It is still mind boggling to me that people have to max out characters in 3 days to get to the end game or they are not happy. Happened in FFXIV (which was the last MMO I played) and everyone began crying. It isn't necessary.
Overall, with a few changes on Brad's end and a few changes on our own end, it will be fine. Just like anything else, you have to understand we cannot compete with a kid who doesn't have class on Tuesday and Thursdays or even chooses not to go out on one weekend or the next to progress. Maybe some can but I know I can't. I'm fortunate that may family likes going to bed at 9 pm where I don't even get sleepy until midnight or later but even then, I can only sit for hours on end trying to complete a key quest or grind exp.
I hope the game appeals to more people than we are thinking. I know there's a generation that's heard the stories of how EQ was or maybe even faintly remember it themselves. I just hope they're not so spoiled by MMO's today that they are not willing to put up with a little of what once was...
Hekotat
FoH nuclear response team
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I agree. That's all true. But I wasn't the one who originally made the analogy. I was pointing out that people do actually do things like pre-pay for cars or meals or whatever. If the idea of paying ahead of time for something was a hangup for etchazz, it shouldn't be. People pay ahead of time for things in all sorts of businesses now-a-days.
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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Wanted to share Ben's responses to my questions asked via Kickstarter (hope he does not mind the share as I did not see any indication that it would break confidence)
Question 6 was regarding the direction of Pantheon in terms of raid design being like EQII where you enter an instanced and you see a single raid mob and some adds or will it be like EQ1 where there's an entire dungeon to weave through, filled with players grouping, and the encounter is somewhere at the bottom. Hence the reference to Sebilis above.
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
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...and GW2 and Neverwinter and possibly others I forgot. It's not handholding in my opinion (hell, fuck, at this rate you guys are gonna declare any UI element as "handholding"), it's just a mechanic: sometimes you have so much shit going on at once, you need UI cues to what is what and telegraphs are just that. It's the amount of time you have to dodge it and how freaking dangerous it is to eat a blow that matters more than anything else. In GW2 most of the time there is enough time to dodge, just like in NWO, but there are some attacks/spells that are stupidly dangerous and fairly quick in landing, so you must be on your toes all the time.
Whether this is sitting well in a old school modern MMO I have no idea, it's not my job to find it out, but what *I* can tell you with absolute accuracy is that actively moving out of stuff added a wonderful layer of interactivity for my personal taste. As a tank, healer, or generic dpser, having the option to avoid fire actively is more interesting than just by hitting the movement keys and eating the first tick of whatever "void zone" hit you.
Hateyou
Not Great, Not Terrible
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The only problem I see with paying ahead for a video game is it's so risky compared to other industries. You don't always get what was promised. See Elemental: War of Magic, or Vanguard. Both of those games were vastly different/worse than promised. When I order rims for my new car, I get the exact new rims I asked for. Food can be shitty, but you're right there with the person serving it, you can bitch/get your money back if it's that bad.
I generally wait for games to be released/read reviews. I've only backed one Kickstarter (Grim Dawn) so far because it came from a company I didn't mind giving money to because their previous game ate up a lot of my time in the past. I've been burned by crappy video games too many times in the past.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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you are not even buying one.
That is the danger with kickstarter.
its a donation.
its a pre-order.
its an investment.
and any time the morality or legality or oversight of any particular one is called into question, just play a shell game of swapping around which it really is.
I think less staring at the ground is good, but telegraphing is hugely important. Wow has way too much stare at the ground mechanics, tho at least they let you mod in audio cues. Also while I like it in boss fights I find it obnoxious in grind content. If I have to sit and grind for a few hours then trash that is constantly spamming abilities I have to dodge goes from interesting to tedious really really fast.
completely different when you're pre paying for something from an established, reputable company (like ferrari for example). it's all about supply and demand. people are willing to pre pay to get a new ferrari because that's the only way to make sure you get one. but that's from an established company that people are willing to do this because they know the car is going to be delivered. giving money to an unknown commodity (in this case brad's new company) is entirely different. there's a chance that this game never even sees the light of day.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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yeah. I have a REAL hard time going back an playing any mmo that doesn't have a block/dodgeroll now.
i would probably point to dcuo, and tera for block/dodge mechanics though. (even as much as I hate dcuo combat all around)
the telegraphing is important as noted. I don't think GW2 quite got this perfect in most cases. A bit too fast/small far too often. Look at the bitching in the gw2 threads about how its tab targeting. most of the players for the longest time didn't really even understand GW2 had direction combat, or moves could be dodge/blocked/body locked, etc.