Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I'm not quite sure how you possibly have both the EC Tunnel and AH , short of maybe a silly tax rate on the AH that makes it worthwhile to try and sell it EC style.
well, he mentioned somewhere(maybe here) that dungeons will be so large groups will actually have places they can safely camp at.. I'm assuming hes thinking some players may look to sell shit at those locations? I'm ok with AH's if they are regional.. I just hate the global system.. I'd prefer a straight trading system tho
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Good downtime post.
I think the primary reason that downtime is hated is because of the grind. In WOW and every game that has been released you need to kill X mobs before Y reward, or complete X quests before Y reward. Downtime create a sense of urgency because you're not doing anything but you still have some metric left to do and the only thing that is keeping you back is some mechanic that forces pacing.

Now that is an obvious statement.

The problem with the X is that each individual X is not rewarding. You either get one of three things that suck:

1) A few coppers - Reason Why: You ignore this because it's negligible even though ultimately it adds up

2) Some vendor trash - Reason Why: Who gives a fuck about fluffy tails and grey bear asses? Not fun and it clogs up inventory. Ultimately selling adds up, but it's not exciting just like #1 but worse.

3) Some common/uncommong item - Reason Why: In a game where green random items exist you never use this because it's shit 9 times out of 10 and no one uses it. It's also random so who cares anyway? Maybe you toss it in a pile to twink a toon with it for a few levels. More likely you put it up in the AH so someone else can buy it for 2x the vendor price.

(Caveat: WOW has made these useful for levels leading up to the mudflation expansion curve. But that is not intentional design I don't think, it's a bi-product).

So when is downtime acceptable? When combat becomes more engaging and the act of fighting is actually fun, you can increase your TTK. Either you fight really hard individual NPCs or you fight really challenging groups of NPCs. Because your time to kill is increased, challenge is increased and downtime is increase, your time commitment is increase. Because of this you can increase the rewards for being successful.

So essentially, slowing down the game, INCREASING rewards (or potential rewards you don't needs something 100% of the time) you can increase downtime. If you fight for 4-5 minutes and get something decent, or have the potential for something really good, you don't mind a 2-3 minute slow down period afterwards.
 

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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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he specifically said you have to go there once yourself, then you can tp there. That's exactly a WoW flight path to me.
But he also said classes will be able to port.. so.. we can assume there are teleport locations within cities(like VG) and class ports that port you off the beaten trail to more desirable locations(like EQ)
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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But he also said classes will be able to port.. so.. we can assume there are teleport locations within cities(like VG) and class ports that port you off the beaten trail to more desirable locations(like EQ)
you mean like Teleport to Stormwind?

Class ports that port you off the beaten trail, sorry, he doesn't say anything like that. What he basically described was resurrection in the last part of that answer.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Yeah. I think this is just a matter of being so sick of WoW's quest. But the fact is, I don't know about you guys, but I loved the first time I logged onto my gay night elf and saw how the quest system in WoW worked. It was quick, refreshing and pretty fun. Also, the quests were interesting---at first. The problem arose when I saw quest chains were like an episodic TV show. They had little, to no, impact on my character or the world, and even the items I got from them were gone in a couple levels. Doing quests in WoW were like watching Law and Order--mildly enjoyable in the moment, utterly forgettable by next episode.

I think that is where modern quest systems fail. By solely relying on quests for leveling, they've come tedious and they can't be impactful to you or the world because you need too many to get where you're going. Everyone points to epic quests, or the Shawl quest as being amazing but what was amazing about them was how memorable the rewards were, and how difficult and consuming they were to complete--the rewards gave you something that forced you to remember the quest for YEARS sometimes, after it was done. However, some of the quests in WoW, like finding the ghost wife of someone, were better written and more compelling, in my opinion (From a writing, not game, stand point). But the impression was just lost in a deluge of shit grinding quests. It's kind of like what happened to items. By making all progression at the end game work through items, they diluted the thrill and power of items. By making quests to mundane building blocks of character progression, they made it so most quests seeming boring, meaningless and trivial.

Hopefully this game will just keep in mind "too much of a good thing sucks". People need some form of absence to incur fondness. If I'm inundated with quests that give me unmemorable trinkets every 2 levels, chances are, I'm not going to enjoy any of them. They also need some form of permanence in changes to make things memorable--again, WoW is episodic TV anymore. Easy to get into, amusing to do a few times...but in the end, forgettable.
This leads to non-level based progression, or at least non-experience based progression system. Instead of spending your time doing 100 quests to level, you spend your time doing one quest to level. This way you have one goal and don't have to worry about kill efficiency or collection efficiency. Puzzles, mazes and other non combat content can be used and not seen as a waste of time by the majority of people.
 

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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
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you mean like Teleport to Stormwind?

Class ports that port you off the beaten trail, sorry, he doesn't say anything like that. What he basically described was resurrection in the last part of that answer.
heh? he said some classes will be able to teleport..hmm maybe I'm just confusing it..
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
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he specifically said you have to go there once yourself, then you can tp there. That's exactly a WoW flight path to me.
Eh, Depends on how many. Might just be one or two connections because they can't put in boats.

Combat us the main issue. Brad isn't explaining what he us trying to do properly. He's got three ideas: trinity, reaction abilities and required downtown. He should write up a one paragraph sample combat to show the flow.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
But he also said classes will be able to port.. so.. we can assume there are teleport locations within cities(like VG) and class ports that port you off the beaten trail to more desirable locations(like EQ)
He's lost his mind here. So basically yes, players can just zap most anywhere they want to once they have been there first. Which basically makes player porting, wizzys, druids, unnecessary. Brad, have you been listening at all?
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,215
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I'm not quite sure how you possibly have both the EC Tunnel and AH , short of maybe a silly tax rate on the AH that makes it worthwhile to try and sell it EC style.
I think the idea is to encourage players to interact as they did in EC through a channel or possibly create certain areas throughout the game to sell. Maybe these areas allow you to build bonus exp (rest) or give you a special buff for a period of time. As he said, EC wasn't by design so I think the key is to create areas throughout the world that facilitate and encourage people to interact through tradeskill and buying/selling. In regards to the AH, i'm sure they'll have some kind of system but I bet it doesn't not reach a global market (as he referenced) but the auction will work within a single town or region. I still think that EQII did AH the best and they could copy/paste their AH, Housing, Guild Hall, and Tradeskill then simply polish it.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
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ReRolled Points of Interest:

Confused Clam Bay
Sneaky Sausage Cove
Valley of Dong
Shim's Caverns
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
He's lost his mind here. So basically yes, players can just zap most anywhere they want to once they have been there first. Which basically makes player porting, wizzys, druids, unnecessary. Brad, have you been listening at all?
Little confused myself.. I thought he said he was going for a mix of both.. some classes like Wiz and Druids plus a teleport to certain cities.. Maybe I'm just mixing it all up in my head lol.. He will clear it up I'm sure.
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Could also be like the Dragon Rings back on Velious. I'd put my money on that instead.
uhm, you lost me there. What was fast travel in velious again? I thought it was just the same wizard / druid teleport location system that was in from Launch. I Don't think you needed to have visited Cobalt Scar before you could be teleported there, right?

heh? he said some classes will be able to teleport..hmm maybe I'm just confusing it
Yes, some classes also having teleports to major cities is also exactly what WoW did. Flight Paths + Portal Stormwind.

Video won't show at work. What exactly was said about travel and death penalty?
Travel is being laid out here now in our current discussion. Death penalty wasn't discussed at all. There was just this one sentence about "dieing in a dungeon" and a class can "teleport" you back to the dungeon, which to me is what Resurrection did.
 

TragedyAnn_sl

shitlord
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1
i like mounts as a reward for a long quest line. the first few times going from point a to b might be full of danger and excitement, but after the novelty wears off, its really annoying spending half your play time traveling.
Agree. As far as quest reward, some of the most fun I had in VG was working on the shadowhound quest line. Tons of fun.
Or if they just leave mounts out all together there are other ways of avoiding the repetitiveness of running between A and B. Similar to GW2 where you run to a place first and after that you can just click there...
On a side note, I found this interesting:What not to do on kickstarter. A cautionary tale
I will say I am in for $250 but I waswaymore excited BEFORE they released the kickstarter.
I expected to see lots of concept art (armor, weapons, races, landscapes) and maybe a TINY bit of game play to illustrate the mechanics they're thinking about using, etc. I guess I expected to SEE visually what direction they're heading and not just hear more words about it.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
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He's lost his mind here. So basically yes, players can just zap most anywhere they want to once they have been there first. Which basically makes player porting, wizzys, druids, unnecessary. Brad, have you been listening at all?
That's not what he said at all. He's talking about that there will be teleportation locations in the world, maybe cities or larger central hubs, but you would have to travel from there to wherever you wanted to go. I didn't not take what he said about having 2-4 flight paths per zone.
 

Mur_sl

shitlord
234
0
he specifically said you have to go there once yourself, then you can tp there. That's exactly a WoW flight path to me.
I took that as meaning you would have to visit the port once, before you could later be ported by a porting class to the location, not just port yourself. EQ2 early on required you to go harvest a sacred plant at each druid ring before you could port to them, and I believe you had to gather a scroll near the wizzy spires as well.

I'd like to see a system similar, where you'd need to visit a sight before you could port to it, and you would then need a porting class to take you there every time. I don't like the current systems where you just get sent alone, or just click the portal to chose a destination, (similar to flight paths). Bring back the old Taxi services.