Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
UT can't be the only person who knows SoE Devs.. So other people can dig if they don't believe.. I know for a fact ponytail is liked tho.. At least from the people I talk to.. It's weird tho.. UT is so willing to air SoE laundry but has his lips sealed all thing blizzard:). Where is my Titan info!?
That's only weird if you actually believe everything he says.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
One one hand I think this censorship is averyslippery slope that this forum is headed towards. It is starting to feel like if you don't just complain or argue once about an issue with this KS (to counter any one of the feverish zealots hyping this "game"over and over and overagain), then you run the risk of having your arguments neatly sanitized into a rickshaw thread that 98% of non RR people will never look into. There is an ignore feature on this forum, and people can use it.

I think that someone can be a fanboy for Brad and Co., and for Pantheon, without the over the top, absolute evangelical praise for everything and anything he does. Frankly all of those posts should go into their own rickshaw thread.

On the other hand, this isn't a democracy, and I don't directly pay for the upkeep of this site. So what I think doesn't mean shit.
There has been zero censorship in this thread. I do not want to stop negative topics from coming up, I want to stop the shit posting. If you or anyone else does not know the different feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
To be fair dude, we really should wait for details of how they go about it. popsiciedeath made a pretty good post on how they could handle it. You're just assuming it will be that way.. Was VG even that way? I didn't raid in VG..
There certainly seems to be a large number of people assuming (and hoping) that it will be.

The problem with the hybrid system mentioned is you could split your raid or use alts and dominate the daily spawn for even more loot while denying others. Why wouldn't you? WoW guilds do this now - they split into as many as 5 raid teams, with mains spread throughout each raid, in order to gear up as fast as possible for hard modes. Preventing this in an open-world game would mean something like, I don't now.. account-based lockouts?

It's all just a unnecessary mess that can be avoided if you just made a game where players aren't forced to fight over content.

You could easily design a game where a PVP server has ALL the racing, fighting, cockblocking you desire while PVE is strictly a cooperative effort. WoW used to have all out warfare in front of raid instance portals. Imagine if in order to zone in you had to actually control POIs in the zone. There, PVP and instancing cooexist.

Anyway, going beyond my level of care now.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
There are much better ways to compete than the classic "wait for the other guy to engage trash, run past them and kill boss" and all the other tired crap that required a third party moderator (cs staff) to sort out.

Competition in MMOs is crap. There are much better ways to swing your dick around in a video game.
/disagree contested content in eq2 PVP was what made that pvp experience the best I have ever had.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
I'm sure his number one goal was to take a game from shit to profitable in a single year. That's really, really hard to do, and he was very successful at that. There is a reason why Trion asked him back after he quit. You don't have to like the game, and there is plenty of shit to say about the game (there was a lot wrong with how the game became developed), but from a business point of view, he wins and you look like an idiot.
Actually my friend, I like games for Art, not for how much revenue they take in or not.. but nice try.
 
437
0
More than $100 I agree. Mainly because of what it is now. But $165 plus for a pet, tunic, and horse for the second copy of the game is a little much. I would agree with that cost if alpha and a free month were included though. But just for the couple of cosmetic items I would be willing to go up to $115-$125. With so many couples who play MMORPGs, it could make that higher tier much more appealing to the masses. Which would net VR double the money for minimal work (since those cosmetic items are already being made for everyone else). My only other choice is to make a second account and back at $45 (KS experience tells me those spots will open heh) which gets me the same stuff for $90. Granted no horse, but 1 month free and alpha access.
It would also include Alpha access, Beta Access, the "Pantheon Explorer" title, and forum access.
 
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Really beating a dead horse here but that initial vague KS vid needs redoing.
I would support redoing the main video and adding a lot more enthusiasm. Brad could talk about how he's always had to make compromises in the past and now that he's doing this independently, he can finally make the game the way he envisions it. He should, IMO, play up the advantages that independent publishing gives.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Competition in MMOs is crap. There are much better ways to swing your dick around in a video game.
But I'm old and suck at all of those. Give me back my camps and gear based pwnage.

That stings
frown.png


I'll agree that Hartsman can get stuff completed - I just though Rift was bland on bland on bland. I mean Two factions really? Quest hub's with horrible multi-quests? Thing is, I really wanted to like that game.
Same. Hartsman's leadership and PM skills can't be denied. As a designer and MMO player, he isn't 'us'. He lacks 'vision', as can be seen from Rift which was streamlined but pretty much copy and pasted MMO Design 101.

Come to think of it, Hartsman is the 'get stuff done guy', and Brad is, or was 'the visionary guy'. I think these guys need each other in a bromantic MMO creation sense.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
That's the thing tho.. nobody is really arguing it.. Tad just made a counter.. He's not a raider. He's was just putting some balance into the assumption Kreugen is making.. Which isn't fair b/c there is no real info to go off.
I think it's fair to assume their will be a mix of open-world and instanced raiding in the game. I just don't care that much because I like the leveling/grouping game far more than raiding. It's why I liked VG more than EQ or WoW - it had the most fun and most varied leveling content. You could level three to four characters from 1-45 and never (or almost never for the fourth guy) hit the same content. I use 45 because 45-50, yeah you end up in the same places.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Come to think of it, Hartsman is the 'get stuff done guy', and Brad is, or was 'the visionary guy'. I think these guys need each other in a bromantic MMO creation sense.
Yeah, I deserved lumps from Draegen, because Hartsman's PM skills are undeniable. And yeah I agree with you that would be a dream team pairing of the "get this shit done" guy and the "come up with the good shit to get done" guy.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Yeah, I deserved lumps from Draegen, because Hartsman's PM skills are undeniable. And yeah I agree with you that would be a dream team pairing of the "get this shit done" guy and the "come up with the good shit to get done" guy.
Indeed, i guess what offends me in some way is giving a guy props for being a good PM ? Is just not all that interesting to me. Its not like he at anytime moved the industry in a new direction anything near what Brad has done, yet is is heralded around here for whatever reason.
 

Zefah

<Gold Donor>
2,212
6,507
There certainly seems to be a large number of people assuming (and hoping) that it will be.

The problem with the hybrid system mentioned is you could split your raid or use alts and dominate the daily spawn for even more loot while denying others. Why wouldn't you? WoW guilds do this now - they split into as many as 5 raid teams, with mains spread throughout each raid, in order to gear up as fast as possible for hard modes. Preventing this in an open-world game would mean something like, I don't now.. account-based lockouts?

It's all just a unnecessary mess that can be avoided if you just made a game where players aren't forced to fight over content.

You could easily design a game where a PVP server has ALL the racing, fighting, cockblocking you desire while PVE is strictly a cooperative effort. WoW used to have all out warfare in front of raid instance portals. Imagine if in order to zone in you had to actually control POIs in the zone. There, PVP and instancing cooexist.

Anyway, going beyond my level of care now.
It all comes down to competition for resources to create conflict and make a more interesting world. You may not be interested in that kind of conflict, but I certainly am. It makes the world feel more alive to have those kind of rivalries and drama. I'm tired of the video-game-ass-video-game-focused MMORPGs that really started with WoW. They aren't interested in being virtual worlds with communities outside of maybe your own personal guild. You don't give a shit what anyone else in the game is doing because you don't have to. Personally, I'd rather just play a single player RPG or a round of DOTA or something if I was only interested in enjoying some cool gameplay mechanics with friends.

I do agree that the insane levels of poopsocking that happened in Project 99 and other classic servers is not a good situation. I think there's a good balance that can be found, though.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
Also, you'd really understand where I'm coming from better if you had ever played one of the Everquest progression servers to see what your nostalgic vision of EQ is like when clueless noobs are replaced by experienced, modern MMO players. Then you would be cured of all rose tint. Racing for spawns now is a whole different game. It's 20+ hour camps of empty rooms, followed by a pure dps race. It's mass text message "log on now for a mob that is due to spawn anywhere between 1 and 24 hours from now!" It's hack tools used to grief you by pulling the entire zone onto your position, or warping directly to named that spent hours spawning. It's /petition arguments for every single spawn, with cs staff going through logs to see which group had a certain number of people in the zone first. Or forget all that, and the GM will just /random to see who gets the spawn. Or eventually they will give up and just force you to set a rotation, meaning you will kill a boss one time per month (and growing). Does any of this sound like fun to you?

Sure, probably not everyone is saying the game should be exactly like Everquest and not fix any of these issues. But it sure as hell seems that way at a glance.
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread has said they don't want purely contested spawns for raid mobs. In fact, raiding itself has been on the back burner--most people in the thread want a game more focused on leveling and dungeons, and yeah, the dungeons/leveling content they want to be contested with perhaps some systems to alleviate extreme population issues, but that goes back into wanting the leveling experience to be a much bigger part of the game than it has become in MMO's.

In other words, what you do in between the 7 day lock outs on your dragon, should be the bulk of the game. Heck, the only real big conversation we've even had about it has been a bunch of people talking about how putting caps on raiding made it less accessible because it required a higher skill quotient from each person and didn't allow you to keep the fun, social people in your guild for fear they'd want a raid slot and would suck to much to justify one. But outside of that? I think everyone has seen what has happened on p99.

The thing is, as you even said, there are tons of systems that have never even been iterated on because instancing was a completely new paradigm. Maybe they won't work for the raid game, but for grouping/leveling? It would be neat if those systems had a chance to flourish in a game that was built around PvE competition and limited resources--rather than the experience of defeating the mob.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Indeed, i guess what offends me in some way is giving a guy props for being a good PM ? Is just not all that interesting to me. Its not like he at anytime moved the industry in a new direction anything near what Brad has done, yet is is heralded around here for whatever reason.
Yeah but good management is important. Sigil/VG failed to deliver a near bug free game at release because of bad management. You can have the best idea in the world but if you can't execute on it - you've got problems.

Obviously I support pantheon, but the KS page is something that should have been shoved off to a good PM who would have come up with something better than what we got.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
It all comes down to competition for resources to create conflict and make a more interesting world. You may not be interested in that kind of conflict, but I certainly am. It makes the world feel more alive to have those kind of rivalries and drama.
I'll add that it makes the reward more rewarding. Who wants a ribbon that someone hands you for "being a good guy"? No one, you throw that out immediately. But getting a little trophy for placing 1st or 2nd in a race against a bunch of other people, well that trophy goes on your shelf.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread has said they don't want purely contested spawns for raid mobs. In fact, raiding itself has been on the back burner--most people in the thread want a game more focused on leveling and dungeons, and yeah, the dungeons/leveling content they want to be contested with perhaps some systems to alleviate extreme population issues, but that goes back into wanting the leveling experience to be a much bigger part of the game than it has become in MMO's.

In other words, what you do in between the 7 day lock outs on your dragon, should be the bulk of the game. Heck, the only real big conversation we've even had about it has been a bunch of people talking about how putting caps on raiding made it less accessible because it required a higher skill quotient from each person and didn't allow you to keep the fun, social people in your guild for fear they'd want a raid slot and would suck to much to justify one. But outside of that? I think everyone has seen what has happened on p99.

The thing is, as you even said, there are tons of systems that have never even been iterated on because instancing was a completely new paradigm. Maybe they won't work for the raid game, but for grouping/leveling? It would be neat if those systems had a chance to flourish in a game that was built around PvE competition and limited resources--rather than the experience of defeating the mob.
Aren't you basically describing vanilla WoW on a PvP server? Tauren Mill?
 

Zefah

<Gold Donor>
2,212
6,507
I'll add that it makes the reward more rewarding. Who wants a ribbon that someone hands you for "being a good guy"? No one, you throw that out immediately. But getting a little trophy for placing 1st or 2nd in a race against a bunch of other people, well that trophy goes on your shelf.
Indeed. Scarcity creates value and meaning.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
I'll add that it makes the reward more rewarding. Who wants a ribbon that someone hands you for "being a good guy"? No one, you throw that out immediately. But getting a little trophy for placing 1st or 2nd in a race against a bunch of other people, well that trophy goes on your shelf.
You miss Kreugen's point though. That only benefits the ones that go first or second, and in today's MMO world, it's usually one group of people all the time. What happens to everyone else then? Sucks for them, play a different game?