Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Muligan

Muligan

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Lost Ranger_sl said:
The only book that needs to be made from this is Kickstarter for Dummies.
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hahahaha.... sorry, I found that pretty funny.
 
Khane

Khane

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I guess I'm the minority when I say I would like to see classes play similarly and fit the same role as their classic counterparts but I do not want a direct copy/paste. I'd like to see some innovative mechanics tied in. And even some brand new classes.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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cinge_sl said:
You're on crack. And homogenization goes against pretty much what people, who want this type of game, seem to want.
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This is the opposite of homogenization. Homogenization is making disparate classes all bring the same things to the table. So, if you had a Warrior, Paladin, SK and they all each had their own little buff, but said buff did the same thing and didn't stack? Homogenized (While conversely, if each buff stacked, and did something different, they are unique). Less classes typically leads to more unique classes (Because you can give them important and needed buffs without fear that it will cripple a group by them not being there--because there are so few classes, most likely one will be in the group). In EQ's case, more classes didn't lead to homogenizationbutit did lead to some real weak classes with very narrow and useless roles (hah, Ranger.)

I think a lot of classes could work, mind you. But it takes a lot more work to make sure, say, a monk and a rogue not only play differently, but bring very different group augmentations--however, you'd also have to balance those group augmentations with the fact now that less population per class will be available, so by adding each class you drop the chance it's going to be in group. (Or you increase the chance another class won't be selected because it's inferior.) More classes, essentially, is a lot of balance work if you don't homogenize. (And again, while I think it's possible? It's not easy.)
 
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vazdeline_sl

shitlord
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Pretty sure classes are not set in stone this early, or ALL of the information has even been released. Brad said they aren't even finished with the design doc, things are being developed on the fly, so why is everyone crying about classes not being put in when it was clearly stated multiple times that nothing is set in stone yet?
 
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vazdeline_sl

shitlord
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Khane_sl said:
I guess I'm the minority when I say I would like to see classes play similarly and fit the same role as their classic counterparts but I do not want a direct copy/paste. I'd like to see some innovative mechanics tied in. And even some brand new classes.
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No you sound logical and as if you aren't suffering from nostalgia sickness like many of the people in this thread.
 
Khane

Khane

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vazdeline_sl said:
Pretty sure classes are not set in stone this early, or ALL of the information has even been released. Brad said they aren't even finished with the design doc, things are being developed on the fly, so why is everyone crying about classes not being put in when it was clearly stated multiple times that nothing is set in stone yet?
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What else are we supposed to talk about? There is literally nothing to do but speculate and create wish lists. It's like Christmas. A really shitty, disappointing Christmas where all we can hope for is that next year will be better.
 
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Merlin_sl

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Flc_sl said:
Hi. First post. Feel free to dismiss this, since I'm a January '14 baby, and I wasn't in EQ on launch, joining a year later. My computer wasn't good enough at the time, I was young, and so I spent most of my time in MUDs. But since that time, I've played every major MMO and so I think I might be able to offer a different perspective as to why this Kickstarter is failing - and, frankly, should fail.

1. Brad McQuaid isn't actually a good designer. He's lazy and a plagiarist.

I know there are people out there who view him as a (planar) god, but he's a quintessential example of a guy - as he himself admits - who was in the right place at the right time. And I'm not even talking about the drug-fueled disappearing act he did on Vanguard while other people did the work. I'm talking about EQ. The vast majority of the things he implemented in EQ that you all like were, in terms of game systems, plagiarized entirely from Sojourn/TorilMUD. He did a decent job of creating an actual world and the relevant lore, but I've heard rumors that he ripped off most of that from his old DM.

Need proof? Compare the skills of Sojourn/TorilMUD's ranger with that of EQ's ranger:

TorilMUD:


EQ:


Good job cutting and pasting and adding graphics, Brad.

2. If there IS a "vision" for this MMO, it certainly hasn't been communicated.

Folks here can mock Dave Georgeson all they want (and I have my own issues with him and the creepy eternal-smile) but his EQN reveal (regardless of what you think about the game) was brilliant. "Here are our core pillars. Here's the rationale for why we think these core pillars are essential to evolving MMOs. Here are examples of how these core philosophies will play out in in game systems."

What are Brad's core pillars? Grouping? Dude, every MMO has grouping - you didn't provide any tangible examples for how the grouping would be significantly different except for the fact that there will be more of it.

That's how Pantheon's Kickstarter reads now: an MMO being made by a guy who "designed" MMOs (and by that I mean plagiarized and/or stumbled around in a drug-fueled stupor) that has GROUPING. More on this in #4 below.

Imagine if he communicated whatever his stupid ass vision is in more concrete terms that communicated an overall design philosophy. If he had branded this entire thing as: "A Return to the Hardcore MMO. A constant challenge. Doing to World of Warcraft what Day Z did to Resident Evil and Dark Souls did to the Legend of Zelda." No idea if he's just a complete moron at how to brand ideas, or if he just doesn't have any ideas to brand. (Based on the bullshit he's released since then, like attunement, I'm suspecting the latter.)

3. No new ideas or better presentation and packaging of those ideas.

To have a successful Kickstarter you have to have ideas that are off-the-charts revolutionary (StarForge) OR you have to put older ideas in a new, polished and interesting package (Banner Saga) that people find compelling. I haven't seen a single new idea of value being presented. Just like he stole the design ideas of EQ from TorilMUD, he's now trying to take those same ideas and put them in a Planescape skin. Planar attunement? Yeah, that's in Planescape. Stealing the abilities of monsters you fight and forging them into your own heroic entity? That's a mix of Planescape and the short-lived D&D Birthright.

And as for the packaging - it looks like shit. And the reasons are obvious - they don't have any cash, pre-alpha, etc, etc - but really, it looks terrible. And when you combine stale ideas with terrible packaging, you don't get money from Kickstarter.

4. There aren't enough old-school EQ fans still out there and interested in playing MMOs to fund this.

If there was, it would be well on its way to being funded already. The fact of the matter is, for this to get funded, it has to bring in new players from other, more established MMOs. That's why Camelot Unchained was successful, even though it had old ideas as well - there were a bunch of guilds that were playing Guild Wars 2, were unsatisfied with the RvR PVP provided by it, weren't seeing anything of potential in Elder Scrolls, and thought: "This may be our ticket." Many of those guild leaders played the original DAOC but many of their members didn't, but were influenced by their guilds.

The MMO you have to pull 'new' players from is Warcraft, Brad. And while we all know that EQ was a better MMO than Warcraft, precisely because it was more focused on community and far less casual, the majority of WoW-babies have no idea. And what you're showing them - an MMO that may look like shit but it has grouping!!! - isn't going to pull them away.

5. From day one, it's been sloppy and unprofessional.

Enough said. Why trust you with any money? Fans tend to be smarter than whatever ghost investors (Smed) you've lined up.
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Can someone please make 14'ers be forced to read this prior to posting? This is how you do a fucking 1st post. Nice job dude.
 
Convo

Convo

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Merlin_sl said:
Can someone please make 14'ers be forced to read this prior to posting? This is how you do a fucking 1st post. Nice job dude.
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I dunno.. I felt like he was advocating for Brad to start the kickstarter off with some kind of art project...
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Flc_sl said:
You mean TorilMUD class design. See my post above yours.
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I did read your post. and for the most pat agree. But I did not play any muds before EQ so therefore cannot comment on the theft.

That being said this genre is nothing but stealing and tweaking ideas from one game to another. So there is nothing new there.
 
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AmberT._sl

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The worst part about all this is we have to wait a month before this travesty is finally and officially over. I don't see how they could generate $600k from here. What could they possibly say?
 
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Lost Ranger_sl

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mkopec_sl said:
I did read your post. and for the most pat agree. But I did not play any muds before EQ so therefore cannot comment on the theft.

That being said this genre is nothing but stealing and tweaking ideas from one game to another. So there is nothing new there.
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Yeah it is common practice. Still though it was nice to see a 14er post that wasn't drooling on his keyboard while he typed.
 
Muligan

Muligan

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Anyone know how the morale and reviews are going on the other sites Brad is working? I really haven't put forth much effort in the last couple of days browsing beyond this forum and the KS.
 
Zefah

Zefah

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Flc_sl said:
Good job cutting and pastingand adding graphics, Brad.
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You make that sound so easy...

I didn't play any MUDs, but taking the class design and making it work in a fully realized 3D world doesn't sound like the smallest feat.
 
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