Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I take it you haven't bothered to read this thread. This kickstarter is not a good data point for interest in an "old school" game. (1) Because it was terrible at the beginning and has only recently improved to "tolerable" and, more importantly, (b) it's not even clear to me that what is being advertised is an old school game. Seems more like Vanilla WoW with VG's OT/DT and the odd non-instanced dungeon, at this point. Not to knock Vanilla WoW (as I enjoyed vWoW) but there has been a pretty clear switch in vision from EQ Classic with VGisms to whatever is being offered now. This lack of clarity in vision certainly lost the game the majority of my little pledge (unimportant in the grand scheme) as well, I am sure, others (possibly important in the grand scheme of things).
If I were to tell Brad & co. anything it would be that I find their lack of clarity in vision, disturbing.
Get out now -> incoming Wall of Text
Look there are three types of MMORPGs based on the three original styles of DMs: Monty Haul, KillerDm, RulesLawyers. The vast majority of MMOS these days, and in particular the FTP model games, follow the Monty Haul style of AD&D PnP gaming: if you go into a Monty Haul dungeon you are sure to come out with lots of loot - fuck you if you want to deal with actually risk.
A small number of PvP centric MMOs follow the Killer DM style of AD&D PnP gaming: if you go into a KillerDM game you are probably going to get killed by the dominate PvP guild - fuck you for trying to have fun.
What has disappeared and was represented by original EQ (though original EQ starting areas were a little KillerDM) and VG (though original VG starting areas were a bit Monty Haul) are the Rules Lawyers games where you are punished for being stupid but rewarded for playing smart.
Now folks will say: you are rewarded for playing smart in modern WoW raids. No. That is fucking Dragon's Lair which is really a KillerDM game but which could be won if you correctly memorized the correct move for every room. .
That is difficult, that does take skill but that is different from "playing smart" in an MMORPG. Playing smart in an MMORPG is conning mob levels before running into a room/area that you haven't been before. It's figurinig out skill "chains" based on what you've got, not what's being given to you by developers
That's the vision I'm looking for, and I'm no longer seeing it in Pantheon.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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From what they have been saying, I'd have to agree. The only real parallels between Pantheon and WoW that I have heard are the (limited) use of instancing, and capped raid sizes.Tad-I don't see vanilla WoW at all man. I know you're just checking Brad and team but this game is closer to EQ than WoW was. At least in my opinion. Let's get to a game first before we decide tho
Got some answers to questions I had about pledges and Add-Ons. Took a while but they responded with this:
Questions
Add-On Questions:
$7 - Backer Icon - Let everyone know you backed Pantheon with this unique in-game nameplate icon
-Is this Icon different than the early tester Icon in looks but the same principle?
$10 - Wand of Random Illusions - Be the life of the party by changing your form with this special wand
-Is this like the Illusion clickie from the pledges or is it a different item? If different, how so?
$15 - Exclusive Mount - Choose one of our special Kickstarter-only mounts
-Is this different than the ogre horse from the pledge? Any idea on what kind will be available?
$30 - Backpack Expander - Adds slots to your bags
-Is this different than the backpack given with the pledge? How important is a backpack? Can you just buy them from stores like in EQ? The expander, how many slots and is it for all your bags or just one?
$30 - Pair of Sprinter's Boots - Put a pep in your step as you travel the dangerous lands of Pantheon
-Is this an instant clickie? We assume it works like Jboots, does it? Are items like this going to be hard to obtain in the game?
Pledge Questions:
What is the backpack and how important is an item like that? If going by EQ standards a backpack is next to worthless as you can buy them for a gold or two.
Additional character slot- How many do we get normally?
What's the Unique Tunic? Is this a stat item or cosmetic? If stats, is it meant to be an early game item?
Ring of the fallen? Same question as tunic
Name an in game item- Devs pick an item and ask me to name it? Is it that simple or more to it? Do we have any say in what the item is?
Design an item- We get to choose what kind of item, what it looks like and where it comes from? Do we get to decide if it's an early, mid, late game item? How much freedom do we have in the design is the big question here.
NPC name- Same as with the naming an item. Do the devs choose the NPC and we come up with a name or do we get to make an NPC?
General Questions:
Will more Add-Ons and one time purchase options become available as time goes on? I have no problem donating a lot of money for this project but I don't want to feel like an over worked cow either. Are you going to make my teats sore?
How soon will the early game testers be in game? You mentioned 3 years for total development, is that 1 year pretester, 1 year alpha, 1 year beta?
ANSWERS
Here you go, answers are in brackets
First 3 questions (All item add ons are unique to add ons.)
Is this different than the backpack given with the pledge? (Yes, it is an expander not a backpack.)
How important is a backpack? (Important if you care about having a larger inventory.)
Can you just buy them from stores like in EQ? (Possibly)
The expander, how many slots and is it for all your bags or just one? (Not yet determined, all bags.)
Is this an instant clickie? (Not yet determined)
Are items like this going to be hard to obtain in the game? Yes
What is the backpack and how important is an item like that? (It is a container that holds items, very important if you want more inventory size.)
Additional character slot- How many do we get normally? (Not yet determined)
What's the Unique Tunic? (Not yet determined)
Ring of the fallen? (Not yet determined)
Devs pick an item and ask me to name it? Is it that simple or more to it? (It is that simple)
Design an item- (You get to choose the item and tell us how it looks in game. If you have a particular place you want it to go we will consider it.)
NPC name- (Name an NPC that will exist in the game.)
Will more Add-Ons and one time purchase options become available as time goes on? (Potentially if what we are offering does not potentially affect the integrity of the game design or philosophy.)
How soon will the early game testers be in game? (Not yet determined)
Questions
Add-On Questions:
$7 - Backer Icon - Let everyone know you backed Pantheon with this unique in-game nameplate icon
-Is this Icon different than the early tester Icon in looks but the same principle?
$10 - Wand of Random Illusions - Be the life of the party by changing your form with this special wand
-Is this like the Illusion clickie from the pledges or is it a different item? If different, how so?
$15 - Exclusive Mount - Choose one of our special Kickstarter-only mounts
-Is this different than the ogre horse from the pledge? Any idea on what kind will be available?
$30 - Backpack Expander - Adds slots to your bags
-Is this different than the backpack given with the pledge? How important is a backpack? Can you just buy them from stores like in EQ? The expander, how many slots and is it for all your bags or just one?
$30 - Pair of Sprinter's Boots - Put a pep in your step as you travel the dangerous lands of Pantheon
-Is this an instant clickie? We assume it works like Jboots, does it? Are items like this going to be hard to obtain in the game?
Pledge Questions:
What is the backpack and how important is an item like that? If going by EQ standards a backpack is next to worthless as you can buy them for a gold or two.
Additional character slot- How many do we get normally?
What's the Unique Tunic? Is this a stat item or cosmetic? If stats, is it meant to be an early game item?
Ring of the fallen? Same question as tunic
Name an in game item- Devs pick an item and ask me to name it? Is it that simple or more to it? Do we have any say in what the item is?
Design an item- We get to choose what kind of item, what it looks like and where it comes from? Do we get to decide if it's an early, mid, late game item? How much freedom do we have in the design is the big question here.
NPC name- Same as with the naming an item. Do the devs choose the NPC and we come up with a name or do we get to make an NPC?
General Questions:
Will more Add-Ons and one time purchase options become available as time goes on? I have no problem donating a lot of money for this project but I don't want to feel like an over worked cow either. Are you going to make my teats sore?
How soon will the early game testers be in game? You mentioned 3 years for total development, is that 1 year pretester, 1 year alpha, 1 year beta?
ANSWERS
Here you go, answers are in brackets
First 3 questions (All item add ons are unique to add ons.)
Is this different than the backpack given with the pledge? (Yes, it is an expander not a backpack.)
How important is a backpack? (Important if you care about having a larger inventory.)
Can you just buy them from stores like in EQ? (Possibly)
The expander, how many slots and is it for all your bags or just one? (Not yet determined, all bags.)
Is this an instant clickie? (Not yet determined)
Are items like this going to be hard to obtain in the game? Yes
What is the backpack and how important is an item like that? (It is a container that holds items, very important if you want more inventory size.)
Additional character slot- How many do we get normally? (Not yet determined)
What's the Unique Tunic? (Not yet determined)
Ring of the fallen? (Not yet determined)
Devs pick an item and ask me to name it? Is it that simple or more to it? (It is that simple)
Design an item- (You get to choose the item and tell us how it looks in game. If you have a particular place you want it to go we will consider it.)
NPC name- (Name an NPC that will exist in the game.)
Will more Add-Ons and one time purchase options become available as time goes on? (Potentially if what we are offering does not potentially affect the integrity of the game design or philosophy.)
How soon will the early game testers be in game? (Not yet determined)
Spoken like someone that really has never done anything remotely challenging in WoW.
I don't want Pantheon to be wow, but I think you're absolutely retarded and undermining everything if blindly refuse to acknowledge the advantages and disadvantages to other products out there.
Is that an offer??
Oooooohhooooooo you got me. you guys! Did you see?? He got me!! BUUUURN! Hey if you wanna discuss my personal life so badly, you can PM me. Or start a new thread in "General", since we are apparently fascinating to you. But I don't think the Pantheon thread is really the place for this.
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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Oh, please, wise sage! Enlighten us about the difficulties of EQ raiding. I can't wait to hear this..
For a pledge of just 45$, you too can join the "Huckleberry" tier!
I loved EQ, really liked VG but hated Rift. I quite enjoyed DAoC but hated WHO. I loved, then hated then likde, then hated, then kinda-liked, then hated EVE Online. The only two games which I had high expectations on were Rift and Warhammer Online..both of which I felt were complete shit. I never expected DaOC to be of an interest as PvP wasn't my thing but I came to really like it. Same with EVE.
I've got quite a bit of money in the KS for Pantheon yet am not expecting much. I'm merely gambling at this point..money to burn and thought "why the fuck not, it might work out." I won't miss the money at all and for all I know I could be dead in 3 years. If I get a game that's enjoyable, great. If not then I think MMOs will finally be out of my system.
I've got quite a bit of money in the KS for Pantheon yet am not expecting much. I'm merely gambling at this point..money to burn and thought "why the fuck not, it might work out." I won't miss the money at all and for all I know I could be dead in 3 years. If I get a game that's enjoyable, great. If not then I think MMOs will finally be out of my system.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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- 11,732
Is it bad I'm sorta leaning toward hoping this project fails just so I can bathe in the salty, sweaty tears of so many 90's geeks who never got over EQ? Must decide whether playing a game like Pantheon could maybe be is better than trolling a bunch of people whose glory days and hopes for the future just got shit on in a final, resounding way. Maybe I should take my dilemma to a new Games That Broke Your Heart thread.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I thought this were pretty funny. I'm not sure if he's trolling you or not. I also think it's funny how he gave you non-answers to every question.
Of course he's trolling. They don't have answers to anything at this point. They just want to throw fluff out there to get people to give them money. I'm just happy that they finally at least responded after days. I hope the answers open some people's eyes.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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Yeah, I'm afraid you're right. The truth is, they don't have a clue. I really wish they'd have made a design doc so this kind of thing wouldn't be made up on the fly, because it's so obviously they don't have an answer regarding backpacks and obviously have no fucking clue what a backpack will even do in Pantheon!
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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- 613
People will be let down no matter what. The irony of those hoping for tears(not you buddy) were probably the biggest victims of VG. I still don't know how people bought that game after all the warnings in beta and felt robbed? I just assumed everyone knew it was a mess and knew what they were getting?
I'll be disappointed if this game doesn't make it. I want to see it made but tbh.. I just don't play games much anymore. So, I'd probably check EQN out and move on from gaming. I don't really see a game like Pantheon being made from anyone else and I do think Brad has the best mind to make an enjoyable, old school, type game. Plus, I want the guy to get some redemption or at least a shot at it. Doesn't it interest you guys to see what Brad can squeeze out of 800k? It does me. He'll prove the naysayers right or wrong in regards to his ability to lead a MMO project. tears can wait, future of Pantheon is way more interesting in just about everyway.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I wasn't talking about what was right about eq raiding (just classic eq generally) I was talking about what is wrong with any raiding or game that relies on doing the right thing at exactly the right time (which current eq raiding does too, iirc) It's the difference between being good at chess and good at crossword puzzles. Both are a type of skill. But one is highly specialized and has only one solution, predetermined by the designer.
Edit: as an example of what vWoW did right look at AV. Very much a chess board not a crossword puzzle, until they nerfed it.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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He won't make anything out of 800k because he himself has said he can't. He won't even be able to pay everyone on that figure.
I believe the figure was put at 8 million for the game he wants to make.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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They have to. He got the message. People want to see more.. So unless he goes private funding, the team will have to make some serious progress on Pantheon.
