Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Denaut

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I agree with everything you are saying 100%. My goal is really just to tell folks that don't know about game development generally, or Unity specifically, that by any standard, nothing that the Pantheon team has said officially has been out in left field. It all makes sense.

If they came out and said "we don't need a hardcore networking guy with Unity" I would be the first to post "BS!" but they haven't said that, or even hinted at it. If it gets funded, my guess is that they will have a network guy on the team within a month and then backtrack and reconcile everything to its synced up the way it should be.
Well, yea. But saying and doing are different things. They are saying things that are certainly possible, but they aren't doing any of things that show they are the people capable of doing them.

Good luck with your project!
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
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@quaid With respect to the earlier discussion. Sony now forecasting a 1 billion loss and is exiting pcs and tvs. So no Smed to the rescue for pantheon and if eqnext is not huge soe is probably on the chopping block. Since I don't think pantheon funds I should probably consider p99 as emus may be the only old school option going forward.

@mkopec the trick is to give the AI something other than "kill healer" while still.making combat interesting. EQ and WOW have done that with taunts,summoning, boss aoe abilities, rampage, etc. I just think they need to pair those abilities with a more dynamic decision tree: one time in band camp the raid boss will summon, another time aoe damage, as opposed to completely scripted encounters.
Yea but the way they calculate a loss is comical. I know, it matters, but its still horseshit."We expect to make $1.6 billion in fiscal year 2013. We only made $1.1 billion therefore we "lost" $.5 billion". They didn't really lose the money, they just didn't meet the estimated amount and they call it a loss.
 

Gecko_sl

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Functional Programming languages and NoSQL databases work much differently than traditional I/O, so we don't need (or have) an in-house DB guy. The data-centers that host our servers probably have them, but then you are sort of paying him through your hosting costs. It isn't quite the same.
Any calls to retrieve data require I/O, memory, or cache regardless of what format you use. You still have to pay the piper whether it's called from code, flat file, or traditional RDBMS. If you have thousands of users with millions of objects and you don't have a good transactional means of your server selecting and altering the data then you'll have issues. Your DB configuration seems more attuned to a very small server, and not an MMO. How much CPU does this require for 10 users? How about 100?

Your MMO setup is the exact opposite of what SOE and Blizzard do database wise, also
 

Denaut

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Any calls to retrieve data require I/O, memory, or cache regardless of what format you use. You still have to pay the piper whether it's called from code, flat file, or traditional RDBMS. If you have thousands of users with millions of objects and you don't have a good transactional means of your server selecting and altering the data then you'll have issues. Your DB configuration seems more attuned to a very small server, and not an MMO. How much CPU does this require for 10 users? How about 100?

Your MMO setup is the exact opposite of what SOE and Blizzard do database wise, also
The servers are written in Erlang , which is a fully multi-threaded functional telephony language. It is the language developed in the 70s at Erickson used to write the telephone network backbones and can scale to a ridiculous degree by just adding hardware. WoW and, at least older SOE stuff works on the "old style" (I use the term loosely, old is relative in this industry) model that Vanguard and the other AAA MMOs I've worked on used. So I am very familiar with the model and needing in-house DBAs. What we have is technically superior if only because it is much newer and more similar to what companies like Facebook and Google use. Whatever DBA needs we have are handled by our server programmers and our CTO. I've never even heard the words "Database Administrator" spoken by anyone in the company in the 2 years I've been here.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Google and Facebook have proprietary technology written in conjunction with MYSQL. Neither use what you are describing above.

Amazon uses Oracle. Blizzard uses Oracle. Amazon scales far, far more than any other gaming company, and is cutting edge. Both upgrade frequently and have killer tech and database people.

What you are saying sounds interesting, but again very small in scale. Most tech companies with huge transactional servers do not use NOSQL and all of them employ DBAs for client and backend programming, package building, and most especially tuning.

I'm not sure what company you work for, but it sounds like they might need to hire someone to do actual database work. Many programmers also have good DB skills. For static single player games, or for MMOs where nothing changes, I'm sure you can get away with memory constructs, but you really are limiting what you can do without good DB work.
 

Denaut

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Google and Facebook have proprietary technology written in conjunction with MYSQL. Neither use what you are describing above.

Amazon uses Oracle. Blizzard uses Oracle. Amazon scales far, far more than any other gaming company, and is cutting edge. Both upgrade frequently and have killer tech and database people.

What you are saying sounds interesting, but again very small in scale. Most tech companies with huge transactional servers do not use NOSQL and all of them employ DBAs for client and backend programming, package building, and most especially tuning.

I'm not sure what company you work for, but it sounds like they might need to hire someone to do actual database work. Many programmers also have good DB skills. For static single player games, or for MMOs where nothing changes, I'm sure you can get away with memory constructs, but you really are limiting what you can do without good DB work.
Hmm...

I remember reading about them using NoSQL for there faster I/O stuff (like gaming). For example,Facebook's Messaging system uses HBASE, which I believe is a non-relational (NoSQL) database. My understanding was also that Google replaced their MySQL implementation with other proprietary data storage systems likeBigTableandSpannerfor most of their I/O intensive stuff like gmail. I am fairly certain those are not relational databases either.
 

Denaut

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Ok, internally Google usesNewSQL, which is a relational system that attempts to be maintain ACID guarantees but hit the same scalability and read-write speeds of a NoSQL system.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Hmm...

I remember reading about them using NoSQL for there faster I/O stuff (like gaming). For example,Facebook's Messaging system uses HBASE, which I believe is a non-relational (NoSQL) database. My understanding was also that Google replaced their MySQL implementation with other proprietary data storage systems likeBigTableandSpannerfor most of their I/O intensive stuff like gmail. I am fairly certain those are not relational databases either.
Facebook actually has a page for their own MySQL DB setup, you know:

https://www.facebook.com/MySQLatFacebook
 

Denaut

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Facebook actually has a page for their own MySQL DB setup, you know:

https://www.facebook.com/MySQLatFacebook
Right, but they use different setups for different parts of their system. The messaging system, which has similar needs to an online game, uses a NoSQL setup (HBASE) due to its need for very fast read-write and high scalability.ACIDalso isn't very important for such a system, so sacrificing that for speed scalability is a good trade-off. Now, a bank (or Amazon), can't make that trade-off especially because of the C. But an online game can, and should. It is a better setup for its specific needs.
 

tad10

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Does it matter? The needs of Amazon (non real time updates, I think) are different from the needs of an MMO. There may be a SQL db backend somewhere but I'd assume you would need real time middleware to avoid dreaded loot lag and etc. Never heard of that language but I'll guess it was functionally similar to Tibco 's offerings which I used ages ago.
 

Quaid

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@quaid With respect to the earlier discussion. Sony now forecasting a 1 billion loss and is exiting pcs and tvs. So no Smed to the rescue for pantheon and if eqnext is not huge soe is probably on the chopping block.
I don't see the connection between SONY's TV/Laptop business units performing poorly and SOE. Implying a correlation between the two is quite the logical leap, considering we have almost zero data on SOE's financial performance.

Glad they are dumping their shitty laptop division (my old VAIO is the single worst piece of tech I ever owned price/performance wise) and their overpriced/under performing TVs. Those products have been dragging the Sony name through the dirt for years.
 

Denaut

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Thanks for bringing this up Gecko, there is actually some really interesting stuff out there and I haven't read up on it in a while. Google, like Facebook, uses a fusion of system types (much of it proprietary). They seem to be moving away from NoSQL now, and towards something they call NewSQL. Here is an article about it:High Scalability - High Scalability - Google Spanner's Most Surprising Revelation: NoSQL is Out and NewSQL isIn

Although, from reading about the advantages/disadvantages of NewSQL, it seems to me NoSQL is still a much better alternative for gaming than either SQL or NewSQL due to the lower latency and still slightly faster read-write. The one massive advantages for SQL, ACID guarantee, isn't relevant to gaming.
 

mkopec

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They have nothing to do with each other. And in fact the electronics division is weighing down what is other profitable divisions like Sony pitures. This was discussed today at length on NPR while I was coming to work this morning.
 

Aeiouy_sl

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Yea but the way they calculate a loss is comical. I know, it matters, but its still horseshit."We expect to make $1.6 billion in fiscal year 2013. We only made $1.1 billion therefore we "lost" $.5 billion". They didn't really lose the money, they just didn't meet the estimated amount and they call it a loss.
Wat? Sony has lost close to 8 billion real dollars in the past ten years in TVs.

Nobody is calling missed estimated losses, at least not anyone with a rudimentary understanding of finance.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Right, but they use different setups for different parts of their system. The messaging system, which has similar needs to an online game, uses a NoSQL setup (HBASE) due to its need for very fast read-write and high scalability.ACIDalso isn't very important for such a system, so sacrificing that for speed scalability is a good trade-off. Now, a bank (or Amazon), can't make that trade-off especially because of the C. But an online game can, and should. It is a better setup for its specific needs.
I know the vast majority of their data is hosted via MYSQL. I know they use memcache, also.

If you do some research, Facebook actually went the opposite direction. They started with non relational and moved to relational finding it was a better solution for their setup.

Since most MMOs nowadays are a step away from Facebook, I'd guess they'd be better served with a relational database.
wink.png


Your setup sounds fascinating, Denaut. I work on DBs for a living, and we have several NOSQL, but nothing like you are referencing.
 

Draegan_sl

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Does it matter? The needs of Amazon (non real time updates, I think) are different from the needs of an MMO. There may be a SQL db backend somewhere but I'd assume you would need real time middleware to avoid dreaded loot lag and etc. Never heard of that language but I'll guess it was functionally similar to Tibco 's offerings which I used ages ago.
It's an interesting conversation to read through.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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I don't see the connection between SONY's TV/Laptop business units performing poorly and SOE. Implying a correlation between the two is quite the logical leap, considering we have almost zero data on SOE's financial performance.

Glad they are dumping their shitty laptop division (my old VAIO is the single worst piece of tech I ever owned price/performance wise) and their overpriced/under performing TVs. Those products have been dragging the Sony name through the dirt for years.
/derail
Eh, my.VAIO works better than the Dell I owned. Though no laptop has ever lasted as long as the Toshiba I owned 2003-6. I'll go back to Toshiba next laptop.
 

Denaut

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I know the vast majority of their data is hosted via MYSQL. I know they use memcache, also.
For the last few years they've been moving from MySQL to Spanner (Or BigTable for other applications). Here is just one example, but there are plenty of others on research.google:
F1 - The Fault-Tolerant Distributed RDBMS Supporting Google's Ad Business

If you do some research, Facebook actually went the opposite direction. They started with non relational and moved to relational finding it was a better solution for their setup.

Since most MMOs nowadays are a step away from Facebook, I'd guess they'd be better served with a relational database.
wink.png
Except for where they need very high scalability, with fast read-write like the new messaging system theydeployed in 2010 that uses HBASEbecause it is faster than MySQL.

Around the mid-aughts Google was making a move towardsNoSQL with BigTablewhich currently runs Google Maps,Google Book Search, "My Search History", Google Earth, Blogger.com, Google Code hosting, Orkut, YouTube, and Gmail.

The latest information I found seems to indicate they are slowly moving those services from BigTable to Spanner (NoSQL to NewSQL; not MYSQL), because they want the ACID compliance of SQL with most of the performance advantages of NoSQL. Even Google itself describes this as such "Spanner's data model is not purely relational, in that rows must have names."