Wait, I thought you were protecting the board from getting conned. Not being a dick, just trying to follow along with all the hate and it comes across as mixed messages at times. Booze, with all due respect, the board was founded playing the game that Brad McQuaid made. Why is it even a little bit surprising that there are a lot of loyalists here. If anything, this board is the most fanatical about a game he would create. Why are you so worried about it and intent on telling everyone they are dumb for trusting the guy. Everyone gets it, lol. They understand the risks. no one here hasn't heard of VG or anything. Everyone knows. They dont care. They are excited. Let them be, lol.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
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rhinohelix
Dental Dammer
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I think the worst thing about this KS is that it has given Booze a reason to rub his dick on the forums multiple times a day. I need to get a mouse with a free-spinning wheel again just so I can scroll past that splerg without getting any on my screen.
knowing you in real life must be like having cancer and ALS simultaneously, only less enjoyable.
Nemesis
Bridgeburner
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that's how I feel when I read Convo's posts, where in about one of every three he says could of, should of, seem to of
I like Convo's posts.. but I cringe.. I cringe...
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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Just because an argument works without fail does not make it a "no true Scotsman fallacy" by it's nature of being correct---which is what you're implying here. If you want to "punch a hole" in this argument, it's easy. Just tell everyone the game that had a full suit of niche rules, that wasn't a completely buggy mess. Any game you can name, will probably be from a small studio (Darkfall) and will have loads of structural problems.
This "never been done" argument works not because of some faith-based circular reasoning by the neck beards, though it's tempting to pin it on that. It works because producing an MMO is MASSIVELY expensive, with alongreturn horizon and high risk; it's really a stupid investment, in other words, and I don't think anyone who works in finance wouldeverrecommend one. The only reason they get funded, usually, is becausepublishershave very weighted deals that give them the IP and any work done on the property; AND the money that's left when the project doesn't reach a production goal post (Which they then have the power to pull the plug on and take all the work that might have even been done before the funding. Seriously, study up on publisher contracts, they are brutal).
So these terrible capital options force anyone with the technical know how, and the money, who can actually execute a triple A game; to appease the analysts for highest probable return. And the main problem with market analysts is they take data from trends usually, or studies into populations; and both these things don't really reveal how something really innovative will work, because both sources use baselines already in the market (People from their experiences, data trends from other products). And that's kind of the point--Analysts tend to make it so investments are safer, and risks are hedged. However, markets controlled by them tend to not innovate very well because the risk is just too high to do so. As Henry Ford is attributed to saying "Had I asked what people want, I'd have been told a Faster Horse." Innovation and risk aren't good bed partners. And this isn't just a case in the video game market; many markets with high risk, long time horizons and other factors often stagnate or even just die.
This is just not a bunch of delusional people saying there is "no true scotsman"; in this case, the argument is sound. What it comes down to is anyone with the money to actually make a well functioning MMO; is going to want the assets, IP and work that will allow them to still tap into a proven market if things go south, or tap into that market if it's a success, so they want a WoW clone. And any "dreamers" out there? Well, they won't get the money due to the reasons above, so their execution is going to suck. That's why EQN is so exciting, really. It's innovative and it's got the money to be executed well. If it's successful, it will give another baseline to allow the market to grow again.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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You should of said something...I would have payed more attention;-)
I'm very guilty of bad grammar.
I consider EQ to be a terrible PVP game. I loved EQ and played it longer than any game, but it can't compare PVP wise to UO or DAOC which were built for and had actual good PVP mechanics. It was built to be PVE and having a meticulously crafted AD&D world alone to me doesn't lend itself to being a good PVP game. Darkness Falls, Frontiers, and FFA UO really do.
I played some on Rallos Zek and Tallon Zek, and did PVP events on Nameless, but overall I thought PVP in EQ was just really bad.
UO was built for PVP, and DAOC was built for group based PVP. EQ is a pure PVE game, and even the dedicated servers weren't the same as real PVP games. The classes, areas, and gear design just were bad for fighting other players to me.
I'm still baffled how anyone can say EQ was a great PVP game. EQ made drama. I admit a lot of the issues within the game could have been solved by PVP, but the PVP within the game and the classes just were not really well setup for it.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Turbo's long post a few pages ago on what type of game he's looking for got me to thinking. He brought up the word accountability. And I'm just wondering if that is even possible anymore in todays gaming climate. The average time one plays these types of game is basically 3 months. Some of that is due to the game itself but a lot of it has to do with there just being too many options. EQ came out during a time when there wasn't a ton of gaming options, especially online MMO's around. It certainly was a far cry from now where we have F2P games with zero cost for entry and the average Steam libraries of 100 games, most of which are unplayed. Accountability in EQ only existed because players played and stayed with a game not for weeks, but months and years. I don't know if that type of dedication is there anymore, no matter what type of game it is. I think the greatest challenge any game has, but especially an MMO is how to combat burnout. This is even more important for a sub game, how do you make your game fun and continue to be fun for months at a time without burnout?
The word contested is also used. I agree there is some sort of thrill in racing to a mob and getting there first. But what if you're not in a 'top guild'? Does contested really mean anything? Are the devs completely fine with a majority of the playerbase being cockblocked from high end content? Or are they going to instance some of it, which I would think then would remove the aspect of something being contested.
I guess I go back to P1999. What the average amount of time that people play that EMU? Is there accountability there?
The word contested is also used. I agree there is some sort of thrill in racing to a mob and getting there first. But what if you're not in a 'top guild'? Does contested really mean anything? Are the devs completely fine with a majority of the playerbase being cockblocked from high end content? Or are they going to instance some of it, which I would think then would remove the aspect of something being contested.
I guess I go back to P1999. What the average amount of time that people play that EMU? Is there accountability there?
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I agree, saying EQ was a great PvP game simply means you never played PvP in any other game. Hell, I think vanilla WoW's PvP was better than EQ. EQ was never designed as a PvP game. DAoC was, UO was.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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EQ PvP was only fund because we had played nothing but PvE and we were immersed in the EQ universe. So, when you played PvP in EQ it was novel. You were in the same world, doing a lot of the same things, and the unique aspect of community made it something different. But I agree, to give credit of enjoyment to PvP on those servers, to me, is a long shot. It was terrible PvP. It was just kind of cool because it was a side unique to Everquest. I had fun on RZ and TV/VZ but it wasn't because of the greatness of their PvP, it was because of Everquest. If you played any other PvP game, you quickly experience something better but the thing going against them was they were not Everquest. (At the time.) I've always said that the only thing DAoC had going against them was their timing. EQ had already settled, people had already invested, and they were not quite ready to move on. I believe WoW was partially successful because of its timing. It was what we needed at the time, not to mention the IP and the quality of the game.
Honestly, in my opinion, I think EQII and WAR really game close to creating great PvP games but EQII ran into overthinking not to mention being built on a roller coaster game in terms of quality. WAR just didn't think their end game through at all. I loved my time in DAoC but it was overshadowed by EQ.
Honestly, in my opinion, I think EQII and WAR really game close to creating great PvP games but EQII ran into overthinking not to mention being built on a roller coaster game in terms of quality. WAR just didn't think their end game through at all. I loved my time in DAoC but it was overshadowed by EQ.
Hateyou
Not Great, Not Terrible
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Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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I do agree that Kirun isnt exactly making neutral observations here, but that question piqued my interest: Does EVE Online count? A reply along the lines of being too different from DIKU would be absolutely ok, but that aside it's pretty niche and allows you to form your own networks and define your own challenges, both economic and in combat. It even features boring-as-hell combat in PVE most of the time
Same here. Guess I'll get to keep my money. I doubt I'll pledge through PayPal on their site.
Skanda
I'm Amod too!
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This pretty much echos my thoughts. I think the people who want to see another 'old school' game way over-imagine how much of a market there really is for another EQ/VG. Even the fabled Boogie-Bump was only good for a couple of hundred people. Sure the bad kickstarter will have limited its effect but if a guy with a 1.5 million strong audience can only muster a measly couple of hundred people to show support it just shows me the market for a game like this is being way overstated.