Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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This about sums it up. The biggest mistake with Vanguard was using the Unreal engine. If he used a better engine Vanguard probably would have been the game it was envisioned to be.
Without going into technical details this is not true. Even back then making your own front-end engine was a foolish waste of resources. For all of its problems, using Unreal easily shaved 2 years off the development cycle.
 

Arctic_Slicer_sl

shitlord
155
0
Without going into technical details this is not true. Even back then making your own front-end engine was a foolish waste of resources. For all of its problems, using Unreal easily shaved 2 years off the development cycle.
I didn't say make your own engine; I said you should have found a better one because it's obvious that Unreal never worked for Vangurad and still doesn't work for Vanguard today with the constant chunk crashes.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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As a caveat, it is possible those designers are relatively capable C# scripters that can handle much of the client side work, but their bios read more to me like traditional design. At the veryleast, making an MMO with Unity, you'd need 2 engineers. One client and one server.

I know this doesn't matter to most of the people here, but I thought I'd say it anyway. I am not going to go all crazy spouting hate, because it is pointless and not who I am. I would just rather see Kickstarter money go to young developers that are hungry to create the next big thing. Yea, it is a risk, but at least there is a chance, and new blood in the industry is something sorely needed.
They're all working for pretty much free as far as I know. I'm pretty sure if you were anything but an engineer you'd be on board for doing a project like Pantheon just because it's another opportunity that doesn't seem completely hopeless.

Also as a programmer one of the major hurdles I have are art assets and art designers that don't get bored after 2 days of working. I can literally make an entire client/server framework that renders properly but having artists is one of the major struggles. And they have 3 artists. That's more than most companies can say. I'd freakin' kill for an artist that wasn't afraid of commitment to a project. I can't count the number of artists I had bail on my early dev projects on a single hand because they weren't allowed creative freedom.

I'd gladly help out with Pantheon, as an aspiring programmer, if offered the opportunity. It's in Unity which is a huge plus for any aspiring developer team. You don't even have to worry that much about the rendering engine as most of it's already done and there's a nice setup to get people started.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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I didn't say make your own engine; I said you should have found a better one because it's obvious that Unreal never worked for Vangurad and still doesn't work for Vanguard today with the constant chunk crashes.
Back then, there were no other Engines that would have even remotely fit the bill. Keep in mind the project was started in 2002 or 2003. It is shocking how much game development (especially online development) has changed in only a decade or so.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I will note one thing though; all these people claiming that $800k is 'too small of a number' for an MMORPG to be built in 1-3 years are out of their minds. You get enough people that are passionate about their game in motion and stuff will start taking off. I mean, look at Minecraft; prime example of a low-budget game that hosts more players than most small MMORPGs on a single area, without even being an RPG and it also has poor design decisions. (java, flatfile saving, etc)

If you want to make a game that is like WoW then sure, you can throw money at it and people will make a game they're paid to make. If you want to make a game that will last forever, you spend as much time and do not cut corners for quality. Looking at EQ as an example, the flavor text itself seems like it was a labor of love between many developers. WoW was just a game designed to fix problems, not make a new world.
 

LodyR_sl

shitlord
10
0
This Boogie guy looks a lot like an old warrior of the Prexus server: Uberwolf. Would be funny if it was actually him. Soygen prolly knows more.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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312
When I say the engine is garbage, I'm going off of what I was told. I believe it was you in the vanguard thread that told me as much, Denaut. Basically the engine and chunking weren't made for MMOs and as such that was the best it could be. Did I misunderstand you?
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I'm sorry Secrets, but you are way off on all counts.
You're probably right; I don't follow industry rules and probably am way off. I simply am a software engineer. I innovate, I create, I make things happen that people don't even know that are possible. I don't count the dollars for the company, or hype everyone for the latest cock of duty - I just simply don't care about the financial part of it. I think of what's reasonable based on my experience. And my experience is pretty damn vast, if not considered 'professional'. Companies go head first into a lot of things they don't know about and set themselves up for failure financially because they overpay the wrong people and the people who made the game what it is always end up getting nailed or fired.

I'm pretty certain that you don't need money to make worlds - If you ever play/run an EQEmulator server you'd know that you can make a completely new game experience out of pre-existing assets. I stand by that theory because I have lived it. I have recreated a world, I have made my own, and all with a total cost of $0 USD. To say that you need money to make something new is completely out of line.

I'm almost certain that you worked on Vanguard, did you not? What was your role on Vanguard, out of curosity? Or are you going to 'withhold that technical information' too?
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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When I say the engine is garbage, I'm going off of what I was told. I believe it was you in the vanguard thread that told me as much, Denaut. Basically the engine and chunking weren't made for MMOs and as such that was the best it could be. Did I misunderstand you?
Well, I didn't say the engine was garbage. I said (if I remember correctly) that the game design was iron-clad, tech be damned. So many of the problems Vanguard had were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. A big part of making a good game is modifying your design with creative solutions for difficult technical obstacles. This wasn't done with the open world design.

TLDR; Vanguards performance issues stemmed from design decisions, not technical ones.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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TLDR; Vanguards performance issues stemmed from design decisions, not technical ones.
As a programmer I am calling bullshit on this. You can fix bad code, you can't fix bad design decisions. Performance issues are directly related to code, not design decisions.

It's not rocket science.

Unless of course you meant code design in which case that's a technical issue, not a design issue.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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Well, I didn't say the engine was garbage. I said (if I remember correctly) that the game design was iron-clad, tech be damned. So many of the problems Vanguard had were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. A big part of making a good game is modifying your design with creative solutions for difficult technical obstacles. This wasn't done with the open world design.

TLDR; Vanguards performance issues stemmed from design decisions, not technical ones.
Understood. You would know. You worked on it lol.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
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TLDR; Vanguards performance issues stemmed from design decisions, not technical ones.
Was one of those decisions, choosing for a seamless world and the chunk-thing? I just fired up VG on my i7, Radeon hd 7970, 16gb Ram comp with the game on an SSD and it still hitched. That was a big disappointment.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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Was one of those decisions, choosing for a seamless world and the chunk-thing? I just fired up VG on my i7, Radeon hd 7970, 16gb Ram comp with the game on an SSD and it still hitched. That was a big disappointment.
Still would be a technical decision. If the game designers are making technical decisions something else is amiss here.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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As a programmer I am calling bullshit on this. You can fix bad code, you can't fix bad design decisions. Performance issues are directly related to code, not design decisions.

It's not rocket science.

Unless of course you meant code design in which case that's a technical issue, not a design issue.
I mean no project, no matter how big, has infinite time and resources. Making a game is often about juggling resources to find a maximal point where you get the best game with what you have. This means coming up with creative solutions, for all parties involved, that solve difficult problems.

Telling a programmer to "just make it work" is not a solution. If they could do that there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I mean no project, no matter how big, has infinite time and resources. Making a game is often about juggling resources to find a maximal point where you get the best game with what you have. This means coming up with creative solutions, for all parties involved, that solve difficult problems.

Telling a programmer to "just make it work" is not a solution. If they could do that there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
But their job is to 'make it work'; that's what they get paid for. Start looking into performance monitoring tools. Start finding bottlenecks. They don't have infinite time, but there should be reasonable amounts of time to solve bottlenecks. Take APB: Reloaded for example, it took them 3 years (!!!) to solve a latency spike issue in their server code. That's the kind of unacceptable bugs that programmers like myself fix, and are never given the opportunity to fix due to not being in industry.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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Was one of those decisions, choosing for a seamless world and the chunk-thing? I just fired up VG on my i7, Radeon hd 7970, 16gb Ram comp with the game on an SSD and it still hitched. That was a big disappointment.
Yes, that was the big one. The game hitches when chunking primarily (if I understood correctly) because the server has to pack up all of your character information and send it to the server handling the next chunk. This causes all sorts of wonkyness on the chunk lines with everything, especially players and NPCs.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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But their job is to 'make it work'; that's what they get paid for. Start looking into performance monitoring tools. Start finding bottlenecks. They don't have infinite time, but there should be reasonable amounts of time to solve bottlenecks. Take APB: Reloaded for example, it took them 3 years (!!!) to solve a latency spike issue in their server code. That's the kind of unacceptable bugs that programmers like myself fix, and are never given the opportunity to fix due to not being in industry.
I'm sorry, but your ideas exist outside of reality.

Implementation is ultimately bound by the physical constraints of the universe. Sometimes there is NO good technical solution within those given constraints. Resources are not infinite. Every action costs something, every decision involves a trade-off, that is how it really works.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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Yes, that was the big one. The game hitches when chunking primarily (if I understood correctly) because the server has to pack up all of your character information and send it to the server handling the next chunk. This causes all sorts of wonkyness on the chunk lines with everything, especially players and NPCs.
At that point, why not allow the client to continue regardless of the server's response, and THEN allow for the chunking to occur in the background? Has no one in that team heard of threads and proper usage of mutexes? You can send the client the information again when it's proper to.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I'm sorry, but your ideas exist outside of reality.

Implementation is ultimately bound by the physical constraints of the universe. Sometimes there is NO good technical solution within those given constraints. Resources are not infinite. Every action costs something, every decision involves a trade-off, that is how it really works.
I must exist outside of reality, because I make the impossible happen when asked through programming *every day*

No one dares to innovate, or make something new anymore. They don't want to fix problems, they want other people to fix them.
This is where the gaming industry falls short. There's no one new making solutions, in both design, development, and otherwise.