Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Lithose
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Guy states he spent 5-6 hours a day answering calls, emails and posting on various social media sites--doing all the stuff a social media manager does (References how Brad had his number about a dozen times). However, after he put in all this work, the state of the game thread blew up and trolling began--so he locked the thread. That mod action played out like Sean's modding in the Final Fantasy thread --except over on Pantheon, the neckbeards threatened to pull 30k funding from the project if Brad did not axe the community manager. So Brad did axe him and told the community he was just some asshole who was only manager because he donated a lot. (Community Manager vehemently denies this, and says he didn't donate at all after the KS--and Brad made that up to distance himself from the thread closing.).
Brad restored his mod powers a few days later after everything blew over (And the money was safe again) and apologized but Mr. community manager, after realizing how expendable he is, declared that he will only continue to devote time if Brad offers to put it in writing that he will be hired on as Social Media/Community manager once the company is set up. He waits days and weeks for a response to this, but Brad and Tom (The PR guy) never contact him or speak about his demands. He then shows how all communication just broke down and their PR guy, hasn't been seen in 3 weeks.
The rest of the post is littered with some examples of the differences between what a PR guy does; and what a social media/community manager does. The guy explains, often redundantly, how Ben didn't do any social media work--so it was left up to the diligent Community Manager to do so. He also explains how he has his own company AND personal assistant so his time is truly valuable--which is why he won't continue working for free if there is not some formal recognition of being part of the team. He says this (How his time is valuable and he needs formal recognition) about 10 times, over and over again. He also says how he would continue to do it, if he got that formal recognition and "professionalism". (He makes sure to drive that home--that he'd still be community manager if they'd talk to him. It's kind of sad.)
That's literally what that entire mess of garbage was saying. He repeated himself about 30 times; and tried to sell himself and his skills more than a dozen (Which is why the post is so long; it's literally him repeating himself over and over). It was some of the most obtuse and rambling communication I have ever seen; and given social media managers need to have highly concise, cogent communicative skills--I'm pretty sure this guy has never actually done this work. (But he seems super eager to break into it.)
No social media expert would push Google+. The only people pushing Google+ is Google. It's crazy how infrequently the team engaged supporters or tried pushing through various popular social media channels. People don't warm up to people they don't hear or see and let's be honest, nobody even knew what a Rob and Dan show was until Pantheon.
Lithose
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Ahh, thank you. Yes, I will alter Tom to Ben. Honestly, I see (somewhat) what the guy is saying. I actually told Brad at the KS launch, when he was waiting for interviews, a standard PR guy is not really great for KS--typical product PR uses very different forms of media compared to indi projects with no product (And media budget). So, I'm guessing that never got fixed and Brad continued running his PR as if he had a budget for an actual campaign (So interviews coupled with media.)
Ben seems like a good guy, but I never understood the need for a PR guy and nobody on the team seemed well-versed in what that means in a modern gaming world anyways. Obviously that was the least of this project's issues though. Kickstarter projects need a small core of incredibly dedicated people providingqualityupdates on the whatever project they're pitching so people believe it's actually a thing being made. Pantheon Kickstarter launched and people had to scream in the team's face before any concerted effort to get the project known was made. The whole "we're not Kickstarter experts" line is bullshit because nobody is, but coming after so many successful campaigns you have the benefit of knowing what works and what doesn't.
Tauro
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There was Brad, Ben (PR), Tom (web), Vu (gfx), Vhalen (lore) and Salim. Thats 6 guys, i cant remember reading anything from the other half of the team for the whole time. Did the post anything at all? Can anyone tell me what those other guys did the whole time they "worked" for the project?
Dalien
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Has anyone checked in on Bob? I'm worried he's going to try to kill himself with one of his plastic swords.
Convo no longer has access to the forums over at Pantheon so I will take it upon myself to deliver the news. This is going to be a long post filled with quotes from the hot topics the last 2 days. I offer no opinion on said quotes just that they are there for you to read and come up with your own opinions.
Jakeman said:
Hearing Brad's interview yesterday affirmed why I chose to invest in him and Pantheon. Brad clearly has the right attitude and priorities to make this work. For example, when he answered the question about concept art he was very blunt in saying that art would have been a misappropriation of money at this point, and that he has put everything into the game itself - into building a demo to secure investors to keep the game going. Art would have been satisfying in the short term, but Brad is focused on the long term and getting the product to launch.
The demo is now complete, and we can take credit for that as crowd investors. Our money wasn't enough to sustain the project, but Brad has spent our money wisely and Pantheon is now in a good position to get large investors.
Siat said:
The few people who are throwing fits right now, I don't get it? What part of 3 year development cycle is hard to grasp? I feel like some people expected the game to be completed with a shoe string budget in 3 months. I'm in this for the long haul, I understand that when you want something made that is not going for the main stream things are not going to be able to be done through the same channels. The community here is weathering this little storm quite well.
Salty said:
I don't like you
I don't like TWAnderson
I don't like Ktam
This is what I learned the past few days while watching you Purple nerds throw tantrums because you are too emotional. If you are going to roll around with a purple name, which I assume means something, you have a responsibility not to act like an idiot.
Other than that, praise Brad McQuaid.
Absolem said:
Brad And Team,
I know many people have been critical of your announcement regarding the immediate future of Pantheon. I wanted to offer my perspective:
Everquest changed my life. It helped me develop many of the social skills that I use every single day in my personal life and in the work place. It also gave me a chance to give my life for others every day which helped build my integrity and shape who I would ultimately become. I would not be the man I am today if that game had not come along. I donated my money to a guy who was one of the main driving forces behind it's creation. It was a donation, not a purchase. If a game gets made because my money went to help him out, cool. I'll certainly play it if that happens. But what I gained from EQ is worth much more than the money that I gave Brad and his team.
Brad, Thank you for having the courage and drive that it took to deliver Everquest. I'm glad you haven't given up on your dreams and I wish you well in your endeavors to find more funds for Pantheon. Even if that never happens, I'm glad you were able to use the money that I gave and I sincerely hope that it helps you find the path into your next creation. It was a gift and there are no expectations on my end.
Unless of course you do finish Pantheon! Then I fully expect my clickies!
Liamlightfoot said:
I too support Brad and VR whole heartedly. I KNEW as did anyone who was paying attention that there was and is no guarantees when it came to funding. I am very surprised at certain groups that are witchhunting Brad now and i find it offensive. It has been but a day since the announcement and people are already going crazy with end of the world talk. I am faithful that Brad will find the answers and the help we gave - (freely) made it possible to have a working demo for investors to see. I know i will be standing on Terminus soon!!!
Thank you Brad (and team!) for all your hard work to get us to this point, no matter what happens.
Zarriya said:
To Brad and his team: I watch everything pretty closely. I am not in your circle, so I do not know everything that is going on, but I like what I have seen so far. From all the interviews and and podcasts I see people that are passionate and caring about this product. When Brad talks, I feel he is being honest, I see a man that listens to every person and is truly trying to do the best for us. I hope that this is just a little bump in the road because I would truly love to see this game be made. It is all about community and lets hope that it is through this community that this game gets made.
Multisync said:
When I saw this game and heard that it was Brad behind it all I knew after making one phone call that I wanted, no needed to be a part of this as its a once in a life chance to be a part of something great, be a part of something that you think you never will get a chance to be a part of so I jumped at it and my future wife looked at me and said, so, you are going to be on here a lot now I take it, I of course said yes with a big grin and she said ok, show me whats going on and tell me why so I did and she said, WOW, this is so cool and this is coming from someone who has never played an MMORPG before.
Ryan said:
It's very simple, I feel like the money I invested in this game went right into Brad's pockets. I'm aggravated and annoyed, I've been ignored by Wryshu about getting a refund. I feel like I got ripped off , from poor management to poor leadership. This is what reminded me of how Vanguard crumbled, it's the same shit all over again. Shame on me for actually getting bilked again.
Bizzy said:
Good luck on that, I was charged twice because the website kept on asking me to pledge even when I already did, lucky I only did it twice so I was only charged extra one time but It's been a month now and all I get from Brad every week is "Looking into it" and then it gets ignored until a week later, he would send another response "looking into it" and then ignore it again. Like clockwork. These guys have no idea what they are doing and you know what? You thinking it's a scam is not out of the question. I said it before and i'll say it again, anyone that wants crowdfunding, you need to have a product to show, not an idea. All these guys have are ideas when they first started the KS and they expected to get paid and also get office space? You gotta be real here, noone in their right minds would invest in just an IDEA!!!! I definitely wasn't in the right mind when I gave them money but you can be assured, this will never happen again to me.
Nirrtix said:
Ryan noone ripped you or me off... I donated $250. I do not feel ripped off as I gave them the money willingly and I knew this could happen as you should have. However, everyont is jumping ship here, when all is not lost. But the more people here do that the more you are ensuring that the worst happens. Frankly we need to stand together now more than ever not rip our fine community apart and ask for refunds we will not get. That money is spent. PayPal CAnnot get your money back either as they are not a credit card company.
Raiden, I agree some things could have been better. I think part of the problem was that they had limited funds and did not have a office where they worked together. On the point of critisizm I have been concerned about the funding and how we would get more as it trickled it, but I think the recent reviews on KTAM were overly critical. I also question the desire to talk about and ask questions from rerolled.org as the overwhelming majority there have been on a campaign to destroy this game, and if you look on the pantheon page there they laugh like little school girls about how the game is going. The only one who has defended this game there I have seen for the most part is Convo.
Nirrtix said:
Well I know some closed their accounts, I fully intend to keep mine open, and I am not asking for a refund of anykind. I am with both of you I want this game made. $250 is actually a lot of money for me. I work as a cashier at Target and make $8.15 an hour. I also am a student. I do not want my money back, beucase I am hoping my investment will make Pantheon happen. I am saying this to show you guys and the devs, there are many of us out there who wnat this game so much we are donating the most we can to it.
As most here know I am also one of the most active members of the site as well.
Aradune said:
I peronsally know that the team, including me, used the money to pay down bills and keep above water during the long stretch (most since Aug/Sept of last year) of being otherwise unemployed.
I'm personally liquidating lots off stuff, including possibly motorcycles, so I can stay afloat long enough for us to gain funding.
I guess, bottom line, is that nobody is off playing with toys bought from the money we were able to pay them, which was most certainly under industry standard anyway.
If you're just venting because you're disappointed, well, we are disappointed to (albeit still hopeful indeed), so I understand.
That said, if you're trying to cause trouble and dissent, please do it somewhere else -- it's not welcome here.
-Brad
Evilpigboss said:
Your arguments based on pure assumptions are not really helping at all. You're attacking brad without any proof that he actually has 'misused' our money. It's like you're saying that Brad owes you something, but does he really? The first recorded incident of crowdfunding was in the 17th century - at that point in time we called it charity. Although few regulations have been made since (e.g. JOBS act), crowdfunding is pretty much still considered charity. You aren't an investor, you are a donator. Let's ignore ethics for a moment: You gave your property away (I feel cool quoting John Locke) and you have no right to get it back.
Max63 said:
Brad, I hope you are listening to what the rest of us are saying, and not just Ryan. There are more of us here that believe in you, then those who do not!
We are still supporting you. Anyone can accuse! $150k just does not go that far. You now have a proto-type to help you, and your financial rep Chris. I know we will be hearing good news from you, once you have your investors, or investos.
Keep at it, and don't give up!
Raidan said:
Outside of Ryan, who has justification to be frustrated, although poorly presented, there is no true personal insults in this thread toward the dev team. Now, this thread is perhaps not the best use of my time, but I still would like to emphasize a point. As Brad had mentioned in his post, if he did truly help out with bills for the dev team etc. since July/August, then that is commendable, and, as others as stated, I have no reason to doubt it, and I will take him at that word.
However, the issue becomes when the statement of working Pro-Bono on the project up until the end of the Kickstarter is where Ryan's poorly worded frustrations become justified - as that 160,000 cannot be counted until 02/23/14ish. As it was approximately 2/23 when this website started through April 13th ish with the annoucement when the donations stopped counting - assume it is 50 days total of development with the 160,000.
It has been stated several times that there have been 11-12 employees on the project which reached approximately 160,000 at 50 days. If each employee (12) had a split of that, that would be 13,333 for 50 days work. Not a bad gig. Obviously, this is not the most likely case that it went to straight salary or even if it did was split equally, as everything costs money, but that is where a transparent business plan would have been much more beneficial as wild assumptions wouldn't have to be drawn. And, I'm not saying an open balance sheet was needed, but a simple listing of allocation of resources.
I've seen others say that the crowd merely donated their money to the website, but I respectfully disagree. This would be true if there was not discussion from the development team prior to the transition to the website on transparency, being involved in the development process, etc. as a donator.
Nirrtix said:
Brad, I want you to know my post was intended to show I believe in you guys. I still do. I knew what my $250 investement went toward and I knew it was not a loan, which some here seem to be confused about. I also knew you have sold some of your assets to help make Pantheon prior to kickstarter. You mentioned that and I know you have much more of a stake in Pantheon than I do. I also know you want this to happen as much as we do. If we stick together we can still make it happen!
Ktamradio said:
You sir owe me some money then as by your post I clearly did not send money to VRI for the tiers from the KS and there for you are holding money that does not belong to you and for which you have an obligation to return to me with a letter informing me of my error and directing me to the correct account. I look forward to its return. I clearly see your personal e-mail as the recipient and not VRI which is an incorporated entity as I understand it and there for you cannot accept the money to a personal account, it must first be depositied into a corporate account. Having your name on it and not VRI looks shady and dishonest.
Nirrtix said:
KTAM the contact was brads e-mail here. Quit pretending you support Pantheon after your biased interviews. You act like people at rerolled.org other than convo care about Pantheon in your interviews. I read their pantheon thread. All they care about Pantheon to do is smear it and laugh like little school girls. Honestly convo seems like a nice buy I am not sure why he rolls with them as much as he tried to convince them Pantheon would be great, they mocked Convo.
Here is rerolled's thread on Pantheon:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/...w/post_id/7881
They have had an active campaign to mess with us the only one I have seen there defending Pantheon is Convo. Several like Popsicledeath paid into the kickstarted to bash Pantheon on our own kickstarter.
Nirrtix said:
Brad has sold a lot to make PAntheon those who pay attention like you Shaz Canadina and I know that. He has more invested in Pantheon than anyone else.
Ktamradio said:
Nirrtix - Brad is worth at least 7 figures, owns a mansion and another house and plenty of toys. Some of the Development team can't pay their mortgages - Brad's own words. The web site is bringing in an est $8k a month and Brad gets to keep that while the rest of the team look for new jobs. This site does not cost more than $500/year to operate for hosting and bandwidth. That's a lot of extra money and Brad is asking that people continue their subscriptions even though none of it goes to game development. Is that how you treat your community? How you treat people who you call friend?
Sure, it's just business. But the team was never even employees, the only employee at VRI is Brad, everyone else is/was under contract and none of them have seen more than a fraction of the pay promised for the work produced. Ask the Dev's. I have been told they will answer directly if asked. I have been doing a lot of asking and a lot of what I have been told I really want them to say themselves so it is clear it is not second hand or can be claimed as a lie etc.
When you think about who has invested more. Brad who is quite comfortable and is one of only two people who have any access to the true numbers of Pantheon and a guy like Tony who has a child and a wife who doesn't work, Tony who has not worked since last July and has been working producing content for Pantheon all this time without pay, potentially sacrificing his health and wellbeing of his family for only a fraction of pay of what he was promised... who do you think has invested more? Who has more to lose? Who risked more?
Some of you people seem to think I am some bad guy trying to ruin your perfect dream. I am trying to point out the truth of the situation. Tony is not the only one. Ben and Vu are also two others who have been working full time for this project and I know one of them doesn't have enough to pay his bills with the money received from Brad.
Am I a bad guy for trying to tell the other side of this story? To bring some balance and perspective? How can you be so blind and no see it? Are you playing ignorant on purpose and not asking questions yourselves because it ruins your illusion? The only way this project will succeed is if the community knows the truth and finds a way to help those who need it. Brad does not need it. But some of the other Developers do. They sacrificed a lot and they got equally shafted and now witness as many of you flock to Brad who was a large part of the failure of this project, by his own admission.
Sucking up to brad will not make the game go. Keeping the development team from leaving and giving them purpose and the ability to survive until more funding can be reached will go a lot further to seeing this project succeed than not.
But what do I know. A few of you are too busy blocking me and calling me a liar and mis quoting and taking everything out of context or just point farming by liking everything to really stop and consider for a moment that there is a reason why K-TAM is being a voice here, shouting out above the Din of the fan boi'ism and kool-aid slurping. It is because we have been consistent, from day one we have always said, like it or not we are here to support the community and to stand up and point out what doesn't pass the smell test and to be reasonable and debate with you all if need be. It is also why you think we know so much about things you don't. It is because we do, because people are talking with us and rather than telling their story for them we are encouraging them to tell it themselves, or at least to tell those of you who bother to ask them.
Please consider what I have said, look at the facts and ask questions.
Troycostisick said:
KTAM, you're getting really personal and really nasty. I don't appreciate it at all. VRI is a startup business. Those are hard to make successful. I don't see any reason why Brad or anyone really should have to sacrifice all of their personal assets to make this game happen. They can if they want, but they shouldn't be expected to do that. If this thing fails, it fails. Failure is not a bad thing. First, it keeps bad products out of the market where they can do more damage. Perhaps there just isn't a big enough audience for this game. And second, it exposes mistakes so future startups can look at this example and learn from it.
I'm not saying this venture is a failure. Not yet. But if it does, that's just business. There's no reason Brad should make himself destitute to please the 1500 people or so who've pledged on this website.
Vandyn
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Wow it didn't take long for the dirty laundry to start coming out. That long post was rambling but the underlying point of it is that Brad cannot manage a project. If you don't have a good captain steering the ship, the ship is eventually going to run aground. This once again proves that he cannot manage any project, no matter how big or small. There were people saying, even on this forum, that vanguard was a mistake and mistakes happen and he should get the benefit of the doubt. It's obvious that is not the case. EQ was the exception and what's the difference between the success of EQ and the failure of everything else? Brad wasn't directly managing eq.
The worship some of these fanboys is mildly disturbing. But like I said before , some of them are never going to publically criticize Brad or the project because then that validates everyone (rerolled) else. The fact that some of the most diehard fans are jumping ship is pretty funny though. In the end, this whole thing has been like that actor that had one breakout movie way back when and is trying to recapture that magic when is reality it was just a fluke to begin with.
The worship some of these fanboys is mildly disturbing. But like I said before , some of them are never going to publically criticize Brad or the project because then that validates everyone (rerolled) else. The fact that some of the most diehard fans are jumping ship is pretty funny though. In the end, this whole thing has been like that actor that had one breakout movie way back when and is trying to recapture that magic when is reality it was just a fluke to begin with.
Arden
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I calculated an approximate guideline range if he was actually federally convicted of wire fraud. Assuming he has no notable criminal history, his guideline range would be around 33 to 41 months in prison, followed by 1 to 3 years of supervised release.
I'm not suggesting he is guilty of anything, but if hewas...
Actually, by saying "Guess how much I donated!" and then saying "You guys are way off!" you are pretty much exactly "looking to make it about you" so why don't you spill the beans
Tauro
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