I don’t think the 4 hour a week casuals even know how to craft like at all. I barely do and I have thousands of hours of playtime across multiple leagues.
Path of Exile
- Thread starter Jim Russel
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ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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The level of deterministic outcomes harvest provided isn't realistic for the long term health of the game. It's an interesting thing to mess with for a league, but it being a core element only exacerbates the actual problem: that loot drops have been pointless for years now, and picking them up is largely a waste of time. They talked about this a lot in their last podcast with Wilson, and I tend to agree. Adding a system that boils down to "grind X maps to 100% craft your BIS item" just removes all of the RNG from the game, and RNG is what makes these kinds of games have longevity.
No one likes the previous crafting system expert a few mega spergs that like jerking each other off over mirror items twice a league, but replacing it with harvest, or something even close to the power of harvest, is not the answer.
OU Ariakas
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Why not? Who gives a flying fuck if 1% of the playerbase is done after 3 weeks? The other 99% having a better experience *should* be the focus. But if they did some sort of internal data gathering showing that 50% of the mtx purchases come from that 1% then they have a marketing and engagement problem anyways.
Vorph
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Except that's not how Harvest works at all. All it really does is spread the RNG out so that the batshit insane amount of layers of RNG are moved to a more linear setup, and in some cases it removes the potential to brick the item with an unlucky roll (but it's still very possible to put yourself into a situation where any further progress hinges on an annul which could remove the affix you had to use alts/fossils/essences to get, requiring a scour to start over).
You can easily run X maps and not get a single one of the seed mods you need. Hell if you're trying to work with crit or speed you can easily run X+Y+Z maps and not even see a single SEED of those types, let alone actually get the right thing when you grow them. Then once you do get the correct type of slam or annul/slam you need you have to actually hit the correct affix and the correct tier, which can easily take dozens of tries if you're shooting for something like T1 life. Of course, like everything else in PoE you can fix the problem by throwing currency at it instead, but that's when you realize it's simpler and usually also cheaper to just buy the finished item like you would in any other league.
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Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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True. Harvest can’t go as is, not even because the gameplay mechanics are fucking terrible and don’t work for core. Harvest crafts need to not be able to hit influence mods. Plain and simple.
Outside of fossil crafting (which took a giant nerf by the removal of certain mods to influence), current crafting is all RNG bullshit and only a cynic would call it crafting. I excuse conqueror’s exalts and awakener orb crafting because of the access to powerful mods. But you’re still determining two mods. Rest is rng bullshit. Then you’re crafting suffix cannot change, etc and scouring or whatever. With most mods having 5-8 tiers, there’s still a fuckton if RNG, even in fossil crafts.
I was making a T1 dex, T1 crit multi Warlord ring, and to get T1-2 life and hit t4-3resists to make it work cost me well over 3-4 exalts in harvest crafts because of RNG. That’s not unreasonable.
They need to have more deterministic methods. It’s way more fun. The problem is trade and trading crafts. It always accelerates accessibility. Brainstorming a solution, I come back to a Harvest orb that essential makes the item bound to you and it cannot be traded or maybe even scoured or vendored. It becomes a dead end.
This opens up rares being traded to craft on. Which happened plenty this league. I sold tons of rares for upwards of 1-2ex each that had rolled a couple T1. Make it so harvest crafts can brick and dead end and you can stop the crazy flow. People will trade to make that last 1% on a new project. Removing influence from hitting brings alts back in and makes you make the choice of making a digital paperweight or being able to trade said item. Chris Wilson though may have too much of a hardon for a laissez faire economy to do that.
Outside of fossil crafting (which took a giant nerf by the removal of certain mods to influence), current crafting is all RNG bullshit and only a cynic would call it crafting. I excuse conqueror’s exalts and awakener orb crafting because of the access to powerful mods. But you’re still determining two mods. Rest is rng bullshit. Then you’re crafting suffix cannot change, etc and scouring or whatever. With most mods having 5-8 tiers, there’s still a fuckton if RNG, even in fossil crafts.
I was making a T1 dex, T1 crit multi Warlord ring, and to get T1-2 life and hit t4-3resists to make it work cost me well over 3-4 exalts in harvest crafts because of RNG. That’s not unreasonable.
They need to have more deterministic methods. It’s way more fun. The problem is trade and trading crafts. It always accelerates accessibility. Brainstorming a solution, I come back to a Harvest orb that essential makes the item bound to you and it cannot be traded or maybe even scoured or vendored. It becomes a dead end.
This opens up rares being traded to craft on. Which happened plenty this league. I sold tons of rares for upwards of 1-2ex each that had rolled a couple T1. Make it so harvest crafts can brick and dead end and you can stop the crazy flow. People will trade to make that last 1% on a new project. Removing influence from hitting brings alts back in and makes you make the choice of making a digital paperweight or being able to trade said item. Chris Wilson though may have too much of a hardon for a laissez faire economy to do that.
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Pasteton
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Yup, this is what I said pages ago too, most of the insane stuff is from easily hitting influence mods , some of which are supposed to be insanely rare.
I think just some minor boost in deterministic crafting would be a step in the right direction. Making any huge implementations would be stupid and I’m sure ggg won’t do it anyhow. But adding something like a few targeted annuls and elemental swap mods to the crafting bench (which can’t affect influence mods) at a cost of say an ex would not break the game
I think just some minor boost in deterministic crafting would be a step in the right direction. Making any huge implementations would be stupid and I’m sure ggg won’t do it anyhow. But adding something like a few targeted annuls and elemental swap mods to the crafting bench (which can’t affect influence mods) at a cost of say an ex would not break the game
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ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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Honestly a deterministic system that can't access influence mods at all would probably be fine. Let people make basic physical weapons, spell damage wands, resist rares or whatever in a more controlled manner, that's all just basic functionality gear anyway.
I'd trade literally the entire crafting system though for their supposed planned loot overhaul so I can actually pick up something useful off the ground again.
I'd trade literally the entire crafting system though for their supposed planned loot overhaul so I can actually pick up something useful off the ground again.
I think they need to really look at revamping drops/rates when something goes core, as mentioned previously having a 10% chance of getting this in a map makes the entire concept more awful than it currently is.
I've only played since synthesis but every league I've loved because of the ability to see all of it. Taking all that fun and then gutting it down to a 10% chance to get x/y mod, and then 2-5 fragments out of 100 needed to do anything just makes them all shit. If they move something core and don't up the drop rates even slightly whether its seeds, timeless shards, delirium shards or whatever else, just more irritating.
I've only played since synthesis but every league I've loved because of the ability to see all of it. Taking all that fun and then gutting it down to a 10% chance to get x/y mod, and then 2-5 fragments out of 100 needed to do anything just makes them all shit. If they move something core and don't up the drop rates even slightly whether its seeds, timeless shards, delirium shards or whatever else, just more irritating.
Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I forget but a few pages back someone said harvest decimated trading rares. I kinda call BS. I sold plenty of rares, and two weeks into a league only triple t2 plus resistance rares and influence items are worth a piss anyway.
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Xevy
Log Wizard
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Reddit has been a shitfest of whiney cunts since Diablo Immortal was announced. All the Dayjob Dannies who play 90 minutes a day, 4 days a week that think they should do 100% of content are doing their best to ruin the game.
This isn't for those people. It has depth. It has challenge. If you want mindless time-killing, go play D3. There's hard shit in here that a lot of people, MOST PEOPLE, not even people who play 50+ hours a week like me will do. That's fine. They don't owe normies anything. The vast majority of the game is accessible and all these systems they added to make the game easier if you SPEND ANY AMOUNT OF TIME LOOKING INTO HOW THE FUCKING SYSTEMS WORK (Betrayal, Conqueror System, fucking Harvest crafting) and people still don't want to even try. So fuck those guys. You've ruined your own land, you'll not ruin mine.
Harvest was a test experiment. The implementation sucked, they added basically 0 actual content, but the crafting was wonderful. It was too much though as Mathil has said (I haven't watched his new video) if you can make any piece of gear then it stops being a treasure finding ARPG. It becomes an offline stat simulator that you can trade in. Definitely great as a one-and-done and I got to try some shit that would NEVER have been possible in normal leagues without dropping a billion ex (Shroud of Eternity builds with full shaper items for instance).
I'd love if they add some deterministic crafting to help "fix" items. Very often you get a great item and it's got 2 junk stats or 3 great stats and nothing else. Think about how many rings with T1 HP, T1 Res, T1 Res you run into. A lot. But you're rarely going to multicraft that shit at the steep price of 2ex+. This league you could go "Oh, I just need to add an attack suffix for accuracy and a phys aug for flat phys and that's a great ring!" That was nice. Now the white items I made into 10-20ex items in a span of 20 minutes (after accumulating 10-20 crafts from maps first, of course) seemed a bit excessive as permanent fixture.
Fun league, cool idea, content was lacking, some of the rewards were lacking from a pure drops standpoint, but it didn't need to go core and as it was it was definitely too clunky to do so.
For
ronne
here's my POB for my Chieftan Bladeblaster:
This isn't for those people. It has depth. It has challenge. If you want mindless time-killing, go play D3. There's hard shit in here that a lot of people, MOST PEOPLE, not even people who play 50+ hours a week like me will do. That's fine. They don't owe normies anything. The vast majority of the game is accessible and all these systems they added to make the game easier if you SPEND ANY AMOUNT OF TIME LOOKING INTO HOW THE FUCKING SYSTEMS WORK (Betrayal, Conqueror System, fucking Harvest crafting) and people still don't want to even try. So fuck those guys. You've ruined your own land, you'll not ruin mine.
Harvest was a test experiment. The implementation sucked, they added basically 0 actual content, but the crafting was wonderful. It was too much though as Mathil has said (I haven't watched his new video) if you can make any piece of gear then it stops being a treasure finding ARPG. It becomes an offline stat simulator that you can trade in. Definitely great as a one-and-done and I got to try some shit that would NEVER have been possible in normal leagues without dropping a billion ex (Shroud of Eternity builds with full shaper items for instance).
I'd love if they add some deterministic crafting to help "fix" items. Very often you get a great item and it's got 2 junk stats or 3 great stats and nothing else. Think about how many rings with T1 HP, T1 Res, T1 Res you run into. A lot. But you're rarely going to multicraft that shit at the steep price of 2ex+. This league you could go "Oh, I just need to add an attack suffix for accuracy and a phys aug for flat phys and that's a great ring!" That was nice. Now the white items I made into 10-20ex items in a span of 20 minutes (after accumulating 10-20 crafts from maps first, of course) seemed a bit excessive as permanent fixture.
Fun league, cool idea, content was lacking, some of the rewards were lacking from a pure drops standpoint, but it didn't need to go core and as it was it was definitely too clunky to do so.
For
ronne
here's my POB for my Chieftan Bladeblaster:- 1
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Vorph
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Borzak
Bronze Baron of the Realm
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The drawback with crafting is if you don't play PoE every league, probably going back several leagues if you search for any crafting info to get started on it a large part of it is no longer valid or useful because it deals with a league that never went core or whatever. For new playes at least.
Vorph
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Best way to keep up with crafting changes is learn to use Craft of Exile and it will show you pretty much everything you can do in game. Or watch some Youtubers like GhazzyTV. His how-to guides are great this league in particular, but he's been doing them for longer than just Harvest and will probably continue.
That said, Synthesis still makes no fucking sense to me whatsoever.
That said, Synthesis still makes no fucking sense to me whatsoever.
Xevy
Log Wizard
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Yeah that's why I added that part in parentheses. On the one hand that's a lot of crafts to have, but on the other, the amount of time doing maps and getting 20 medium quality crafts (aug fire,remove lightning, etc) versus the old fashioned crafting of STARTING WITH 1000 FUCKING ALTS is way faster. WAY fucking faster. Especially when alts used to be like 1 ex to 400 alts. Then you'd have to hope you hit the right regal or a decent regal or even had ENOUGH regals (not a problem since Delve came out).
Once you were doing red maps, and only doing red maps, the mid tier shit just floooowwwweeddd. I was doing 2 A8 Sirus a day which is something like 50 or more T14+ maps. Getting 8-40 seeds per, that's a big garden. Without even trying I was saving probably 20 recipes per day and using 0 unless I was actively crafting.
Had they found a less clunky way of doing the seed crafting this league would've been a mega hit from the start. If people could've just had premade plots and autoplanted without going into the grove people would have enjoyed it immensely. But PoE always implements good ideas in bad forms. That's just how it works for the first 2-4 weeks.
Going back to spamming alts and hopefully hitting a regal that doesn't brick your item is going to be rough. I hate hate HATED Metamorph league because the extent of "crafting" was just "Get x base. Alt 2 good things. Regal something you can annul or use. Multimod item. Best in slot." It was like, "oh hey, did you get 7 ex yet? Oh you did? Okay here's your BiS item! Later! That was crafting done the wrong way.
OU Ariakas
Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer
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Reddit has been a shitfest of whiney cunts since Diablo Immortal was announced. All the Dayjob Dannies who play 90 minutes a day, 4 days a week that think they should do 100% of content are doing their best to ruin the game.
This isn't for those people. It has depth. It has challenge. If you want mindless time-killing, go play D3. There's hard shit in here that a lot of people, MOST PEOPLE, not even people who play 50+ hours a week like me will do. That's fine. They don't owe normies anything. The vast majority of the game is accessible and all these systems they added to make the game easier if you SPEND ANY AMOUNT OF TIME LOOKING INTO HOW THE FUCKING SYSTEMS WORK (Betrayal, Conqueror System, fucking Harvest crafting) and people still don't want to even try. So fuck those guys. You've ruined your own land, you'll not ruin mine.
Harvest was a test experiment. The implementation sucked, they added basically 0 actual content, but the crafting was wonderful. It was too much though as Mathil has said (I haven't watched his new video) if you can make any piece of gear then it stops being a treasure finding ARPG. It becomes an offline stat simulator that you can trade in. Definitely great as a one-and-done and I got to try some shit that would NEVER have been possible in normal leagues without dropping a billion ex (Shroud of Eternity builds with full shaper items for instance).
I'd love if they add some deterministic crafting to help "fix" items. Very often you get a great item and it's got 2 junk stats or 3 great stats and nothing else. Think about how many rings with T1 HP, T1 Res, T1 Res you run into. A lot. But you're rarely going to multicraft that shit at the steep price of 2ex+. This league you could go "Oh, I just need to add an attack suffix for accuracy and a phys aug for flat phys and that's a great ring!" That was nice. Now the white items I made into 10-20ex items in a span of 20 minutes (after accumulating 10-20 crafts from maps first, of course) seemed a bit excessive as permanent fixture.
Fun league, cool idea, content was lacking, some of the rewards were lacking from a pure drops standpoint, but it didn't need to go core and as it was it was definitely too clunky to do so.
For
You are the most pretentious cunt of a video game player on this forum; and that is saying something. If you poke fun at semi-casuals for being normies than I relish the title.
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TheBeagle
JunkiesNetwork Donor
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Because instead of 1% of trhe base being done in 3 weeks, 70% of the base is done in three weeks.
Xevy
Log Wizard
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Dude, just go play with your kids or get a motorcycle or whatever mid life crisis normies do.
Hardcore vidya gamin' isn't for you anymore.
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Scoresby
Trakanon Raider
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They need to take the deterministic model in Harvest and roll it into the Crafting Bench. Make recipes learned by doing content (some of the more disruptive ones would obviously have a harder requirement to get). Then do away with seeds and have the most defining mats (those to make influenced items, synthesis (lol), etc.) be either mathematically scarce or behind a skill wall, or maybe both. Imagine a system where people farming Uber Elder could access crit / speed resources at a decent rate, but you'd need to be a deep Delver to get physical / caster, influence as a rare from Sirius, same for Synthesis from Synth map bosses. Leave life/defense/resists reasonably accessible as some of you had mentioned, but spread the other aspects around the game so that you likely will be dependent on someone else as it's really fucking time consuming to do it all.
It's definitely been an interesting experiment and I think there's a solid system waiting to happen.
I also agree they need to revisit the itemization of drops as they're largely a total waste of time. I'm somewhat in favor of scaling mod tier with Quality as a function of your level to the content's level (i.e. classic risk vs reward) with at least a little intelligence / preference for synergistic combinations (lightning, cold, and fire damage...awesome). I'm a bit less concerned about the synergy so much as the tier as if most were higher tier rolls on level appropriate content I'd at least be tempted to pick them up and ID them and mathematically a few orders of magnitude less of them would suck.
It's definitely been an interesting experiment and I think there's a solid system waiting to happen.
I also agree they need to revisit the itemization of drops as they're largely a total waste of time. I'm somewhat in favor of scaling mod tier with Quality as a function of your level to the content's level (i.e. classic risk vs reward) with at least a little intelligence / preference for synergistic combinations (lightning, cold, and fire damage...awesome). I'm a bit less concerned about the synergy so much as the tier as if most were higher tier rolls on level appropriate content I'd at least be tempted to pick them up and ID them and mathematically a few orders of magnitude less of them would suck.
OU Ariakas
Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer
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It never was, you dumb fuck. I have a 2 year+ backlog of 15 games because I have a life outside of the computer.
Your 1000 alt spam? Sure it may be the easiest way, but it isn't fun. I still play POE because it is fun; but every league they add shit ass mechanics that make it less and less fun. So then, they add one that actually made it more fun (after arranging your garden which was the least fun thing in the last 2 years of POE). Now, they say that it makes the game too easy; but only for the mouth-breathing fucktards that spend every free second of their life on POE (you are here, fucktard). Everyone else just liked it because they could take an item or base that they found themselves and make something out of it instead of buying. You know, working towards a goal instead of just accumulating currency to sell instead of gamble with. So when the normies decide to have a conversation in this thread about GGG's decisions you do not need to fire up your stream and let us know how good you are at the game. We don't fucking care. You are the tiny minority that GGG is bending over backwards to please not realizing that it will never be enough for you because you are too hardcore.
Don't you have Twitch stream that you can fire up so that no one can watch it?
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Xevy
Log Wizard
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Yeah I'll fire it up soon if you want to learn how to play video games at an above-average level. And if you were capable reading you'd see that I said the 1000 alt spam was the old and slow way, but you live in Missouri so I get it.
But great job! You tried
But great job! You tried
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