Piecing together a speaker system

Noodleface

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
37,961
14,508
I'll grab the model numbers tonight. They were purchased either before or the same time as the receiver.

I think the speakers sound great, but the sub is absolutely nuts.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
So, question about Crossover settings on my Receiver.

The speakers list their low ends as 55Hz for the Bookshelves/Center and 40Hz for the Floorstanding speakers in the manual. The manual states to set the Crossover to 100hz if the option is available.

I can set the crossover to 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 120, 150, and 200.

I think my sub has a range of 25-150 and it's a pretty decent powered sub, but I was wondering if I should set the Crossover to 60Hz (or maybe 40Hz since the Fronts go that low?) to have the nice Pioneer speakers do as much of the work as possible or if I should just set it to 100 like the manual states.

I'm also kind of having a bit of the problem getting the sub's volume level set just right, always seems to be a bit too loud or a bit too quiet and it's hard to hit that sweet spot with the adjustment knob (it's a bitch living in an apartment building and having the sub at a nice level).
 
Zodiac

Zodiac

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,200
14
I'm not sure I'm following - are you talking about your sub output crossover or does your receiver have a crossover for each channel?
 
Zodiac

Zodiac

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,200
14
After reading it again it sounds like you have a single crossover. In that case your range of acceptable crossover settings would be 55-150. I'd set it to 100 just because you wouldn't want your bookshelves to be getting 55Hz signal.

I was confused for a moment when I read your post because my AVR has adjustments for each channel - something similar to this:

rrr_img_28799.jpg
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
It's only a single crossover option, sadly. It does the crossover stuff for any speaker set to "Small" (the other option is Large).

What about setting it to 60 or 80? That'd still be in the range of any speaker I have. Also the Bookshelf speakers are pretty damned hefty, there's pics a few posts back I think.
 
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Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
918
1
What are the specs on the receiver and sub? You mentioned your crossover settings in the receiver, does your sub have a crossover dial?

Ideally you want your crossover settings to allow the fronts and the LFE to transition without any holes in the frequency range. If i remember right your sub is from an Onkyo HTIB setup? If that is the case i think your floorstanders will handle the LFE better than the sub down to their low end which is 40hz. I would start out with setting your front speakers to large, and the crossover to 40hz. You can try 50hz and 60hz as well, depending on how well your speakers actually perform at the low end of the published range.

For setting speaker and sub levels, you need a SPL meter and a receiver that does test tones, or a setup CD. If you have an iphone, there is an app called Audio Tool that has a serviceable SPL meter.

Here is a pretty good guide for getting started.http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765
 
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Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
918
1
Hrmmm, i tried to find a frequency response graph for that sub. No luck!

Having heard the AJones speakers, and just looking at the specs on that sub i am going to guess the LFE output on the floorstanders is going to be better than the sub all the way down to 40hz.

So.... Set front speakers to Large and set crossover at 40hz. If you can tune your output levels via the receiver, you may want to bump up the front speakers a few tics. The 40-80hz range is bass you can actually hear, and your speakers should do a much better job in that range over the sub. Once you get below 25-30hz you actually feel it instead of hearing it.

One thing you can do is play around with the sub placement. Start off near a corner, about a foot or so out and then start crawling around the room on your hands and knees listening for where it sounds the best.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Per this review of the 5.1 set that uses the same speakers I pieced together I'm keeping them set on Small with a 60hz crossover:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/books...-receiver.html

If I had higher end receiver with a better amp I could maybe set them to Large, but they definitely don't sound as good on Large with my current receiver (the Onkyo HT-R580) Vs setting them to Small and 60hz (which sounds phenomenal). Also my subwoofer actually does a fairly good job.
 
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Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
918
1
I just read that review, definitely do what he said!

BTW, how to the bookshelves sound by themselves? I've been really impressed with those little puppies and may pick up a pair of bookshelves for the bedroom
 
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forin

78
0
Sean_sl said:
Per this review of the 5.1 set that uses the same speakers I pieced together I'm keeping them set on Small with a 60hz crossover:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/books...-receiver.html

If I had higher end receiver with a better amp I could maybe set them to Large, but they definitely don't sound as good on Large with my current receiver (the Onkyo HT-R580) Vs setting them to Small and 60hz (which sounds phenomenal). Also my subwoofer actually does a fairly good job.
Click to expand...
In all honesty unless you are able to measure the room or use a SPL device your really just guessing when it comes to bass management. What most people think bass sounds right and what is accurate are generally two different things. After looking at a few of the response curves the towers roll off at 80Hz.

To that end my suggestion would be to up the crossover to 100-120hz (start with 120Hz) for the Andrew Jones speakers. Also if possible move the subwoofer as close to the towers as possible (between them is best).

A crossover is not a brick wall filter. Most pre/receivers have a built in filter of 12dB octave high pass and a fixed 24dB octave low pass.

For example if you set your crossover to 80Hz.
12dB octave highpass = At 80Hz the subwoofer will drop its output by 12dB for every octave higher than 80Hz.
24dB octave low pass = At 80Hz the Speaker will drop its output by 24dB for every octave under 80Hz.

The red curve in this picture is the subwoofer and the blue curve is the speaker.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/351...ssover80hz.png

Notice the gap between them, the point in setting a crossover is to make that transition as smooth as possible. Again you can only guess at this point if you cannot measure it.

A 10inch bass-reflex subwoofer such as your should have no trouble going up to 150Hz. It will have trouble under 40Hz, that I can promise you. Therefore your subwoofer's sweet spot is going to be between 40-120Hz.

Bass quality depends on the following;
1. location (different for every room and listener)
2. liters of displacement (size,xmax,watts),
3. room construction (ringing, canceling, modes),
4. phase (alignment of the subwoofer front wave with the speaker front wave)

Slow, muddy, and boomy bass are dependent on these factors not the sound quality of the woofer. Remember the driver only has to move 80 x second to make an 80Hz wave. Therefore timbre matching a subwoofer to speakers is pointless. That is why, in this situation you can lift the crossover of the subwoofer (allowing it to take over its intend passband of 120Hz and under) when paired with speakers. By doing this you will have more impact, less distortion and overall better sound quality.

Another benefit to raising the crossover is that lower frequencies take much a higher voltage to produce. By lifting the crossover you are freeing the receivers amp by removing the more power intensive frequencies to be powered by the subwoofer. This will provide less clipping, less distortion, cleaner sound in the speakers through their intend range.

Hope this helps and wasn't too wordy.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Thorne - the Bookshelves sound fantastic.

Forin - Okay, I got most of that, I think. Unfortunately I can't really move the sub from where I have it, but the room is really small and it's not far from them anyways. This TV area is like 8 foot by 10 foot heh.
 
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forin

78
0
I realized I left something out in regards to wavelength and frequency.

My very favorite speakers (subjectively and objectively) are Synergy Horns engineered by Tom Danley. He has a very unique approach to his speaker designs. His speakers are designed around the phenomenon of if 2 or more drivers are within a quarter wavelength of each other then the sound is perceived as coming from a single point in space.

Most speakers are designed as MTM (mid, tweeter, mid) A tweeter (for high frequencies) with one or more mid drivers (for middle and lower) surrounding it. Each of these drivers have engineered crossovers that send specific frequencies of sound to each driver. This allows each driver to play in the frequency range that it is most efficient in. Due to spacing the drivers apart you are breaking up the coherency of the sound and many speakers do not sound "good" until you are a few feet back from them. This is due to phase (time) of the specific frequencies leaving each driver and meeting up at the listener at the correct time.

For example in real life someone shoots a gun. What we hear is the frequency range or the waves moving through the air. Now if we were to put our ear to the barrel of the gun (and not go deaf) the sound emanates from a single point in space. Up close you hear all of the frequencies and even at a distance you hear all of the frequencies. Now if someone were to record a gun shot and play it back through a BASIC HT system with an 80Hz crossover you would hear something else. The tweeter will play the frequencies from 20,000Hz till about 2000Hz. The mids will play the sound from 2000Hz till about 80Hz. The subwoofer will play 80Hz till it cuts off (good sub systems can go to 3Hz!!!). Now as you can imagine the sound is spread over a large area. When listening to the speaker (forget the subwoofer for now) in what normally takes a tiny space to produce a sound, is now spread over an area of a couple feet.

The frequency is basically how many times per second the driver moves. To reproduce a 20kHz the driver needs to vibrate at 20,000 times per second. Each frequency has its own length. A 20kHz frequency has a wavelength of 0.68 inches. While a 20Hz frequency has a wavelength of 56 feet.

Now if we were to set your crossover to 120Hz the wavelength would be 9.4 feet long. At this point the speakers and subs are both playing at 120Hz and they each have a wavelength that is 9.4 feet long. As mentioned earlier, if we were to place 2 drivers (speaker and subwoofer) a quarter wavelength apart the sound would appear to come from a single point in space.

So if you can place the subwoofer 2.35 feet or less from both speakers, it will appear that the sound coming from the speakers and subs is coming from one point in space. This will greatly help with bass quality, imaging, soundstage. Also if you can, try to get the front of the subwoofer driver in a parallel line with the tower speakers, this will help the sound from the sub and front speakers to arrive at your ears around the same time.

The problem with this is that the entire process only works when you are either outside or in a giant auditorium. The room changes many of these factors but since you cannot measure anything or treat the room we cannot address frequency response or room interactions. The only thing we can do is physically align the sub with the speakers so that they arrive to your position at the same time with a proper crossover setting.

In a nut shell
With a 120Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 2.35 feet away from both speakers and try to place them in a parallel line across the front.
100Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 2.8 feet away from both speakers
80Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 3.5 feet away from both speakers.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Isn't some of that distance stuff balanced out by having a receiver that has settings for how far away each speaker and subwoofer is from you?
 
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forin

78
0
Lets say you set up the HT and were able to measure it. The crossover is at 120Hz and the distance of the subwoofer is the same as the front speakers.
Now if everything were perfect the frequency response should be flat from 80-150Hz (crossover range). If your phase was not correct there would be a large drop in dB at that crossover range. To fix it you would slowly go up or down on the distance setting of the subwoofer in the receiver and then remeasure (takes a few hours). Even changes of of a few inches in the distance setting of the receiver can make a difference in the measurement. Eventually you should be able to mostly flatten out that dip and that is the proper distance for your subwoofer at that crossover setting. If you change the crossover you have to repeat the entire process.

Since you cant measure the only way to get close is to set the sub distance the same as the speakers and then physically place it as far from you as the speakers are.

Yes the distance setting in the receiver is there for that purpose but unless you can measure it your really just guessing.
 
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Dabamf_sl

shitlord
1,472
0
I recently read through this thread, as I'm looking to buy a relatively inexpensive speaker system. My priority is for music, though it will be used for occasional movies and tv. I don't care about theatre quality sound or anything...just something functional (for tv), but something that will sound good/great for music.

For speakers, I'm looking at the Andrew Jones Pioneers (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS5...ioneer+sp-fs52)

One question I had is the floor speakers are $125 each, whereas the bookshelf speakers are $125 for 2 of them. Is there a big different between the floor speakers and bookshelf? Will I notice a dropoff in sound quality if I use the bookshelfs for main speakers?
Also, is it required to get a center channel speaker? If it is the primary speaker for voice on tv/movies, will a receiver accommodate for the lack of a center speaker? From what I've read here and in the links posted, it seems getting an identical speaker to the 2 front speakers is recommended for the center. This would get quite expensive for me.

For the sub, I'm looking at the BIC F12 (http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F1...pr_product_top). It was recommended highly in several places as the best budget option for music.

Finally, I'm a bit lost on the receiver. Does the receiver affect sound quality that much? This Yamaha (http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V373...pr_product_top) was sitting around $200 earlier, but if I could get away with buying a cheaper one, that's preferable. Any cheaper recommendations?

All together I'm looking at $650 for 2 floor speakers, sub, and receiver. $775 if I add another floor speaker for the center channel. I'd like to cut this cost down a bit if possible. Any ideas?
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
I would try to get them on sale, Dabamf. I paid a total of $313 for my set of those Pioneers. $77 for each Floorstanding speaker, $77 for the Bookshelf pair, and $82 for the Center.

Honestly, I would not do the whole matching the center channel by using another floorstanding speaker thing. It's totally unnecessary (and a super audiophile thing) and most people cannot work that speaker into an entertainment center setup. Also If you're not doing surround sound then I wouldn't bother with a center channel at all and just stick to the stereo+sub setup.
 
Jysin

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,275
4,027
forin_sl said:
I realized I left something out in regards to wavelength and frequency.

My very favorite speakers (subjectively and objectively) are Synergy Horns engineered by Tom Danley. He has a very unique approach to his speaker designs. His speakers are designed around the phenomenon of if 2 or more drivers are within a quarter wavelength of each other then the sound is perceived as coming from a single point in space.

Most speakers are designed as MTM (mid, tweeter, mid) A tweeter (for high frequencies) with one or more mid drivers (for middle and lower) surrounding it. Each of these drivers have engineered crossovers that send specific frequencies of sound to each driver. This allows each driver to play in the frequency range that it is most efficient in. Due to spacing the drivers apart you are breaking up the coherency of the sound and many speakers do not sound "good" until you are a few feet back from them. This is due to phase (time) of the specific frequencies leaving each driver and meeting up at the listener at the correct time.

For example in real life someone shoots a gun. What we hear is the frequency range or the waves moving through the air. Now if we were to put our ear to the barrel of the gun (and not go deaf) the sound emanates from a single point in space. Up close you hear all of the frequencies and even at a distance you hear all of the frequencies. Now if someone were to record a gun shot and play it back through a BASIC HT system with an 80Hz crossover you would hear something else. The tweeter will play the frequencies from 20,000Hz till about 2000Hz. The mids will play the sound from 2000Hz till about 80Hz. The subwoofer will play 80Hz till it cuts off (good sub systems can go to 3Hz!!!). Now as you can imagine the sound is spread over a large area. When listening to the speaker (forget the subwoofer for now) in what normally takes a tiny space to produce a sound, is now spread over an area of a couple feet.

The frequency is basically how many times per second the driver moves. To reproduce a 20kHz the driver needs to vibrate at 20,000 times per second. Each frequency has its own length. A 20kHz frequency has a wavelength of 0.68 inches. While a 20Hz frequency has a wavelength of 56 feet.

Now if we were to set your crossover to 120Hz the wavelength would be 9.4 feet long. At this point the speakers and subs are both playing at 120Hz and they each have a wavelength that is 9.4 feet long. As mentioned earlier, if we were to place 2 drivers (speaker and subwoofer) a quarter wavelength apart the sound would appear to come from a single point in space.

So if you can place the subwoofer 2.35 feet or less from both speakers, it will appear that the sound coming from the speakers and subs is coming from one point in space. This will greatly help with bass quality, imaging, soundstage. Also if you can, try to get the front of the subwoofer driver in a parallel line with the tower speakers, this will help the sound from the sub and front speakers to arrive at your ears around the same time.

The problem with this is that the entire process only works when you are either outside or in a giant auditorium. The room changes many of these factors but since you cannot measure anything or treat the room we cannot address frequency response or room interactions. The only thing we can do is physically align the sub with the speakers so that they arrive to your position at the same time with a proper crossover setting.

In a nut shell
With a 120Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 2.35 feet away from both speakers and try to place them in a parallel line across the front.
100Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 2.8 feet away from both speakers
80Hz crossover try to place the subwoofer to be at most 3.5 feet away from both speakers.
Click to expand...
Am I missing something here or isnt this calculation only valid for 1 fixed point frequency? (ie: nothing except a sine wave) Dynamic audio would constantly change frequencies (therefore wavelength) and you would have a constantly moving variable for speaker placement to align at 1 fixed point in a room.

/nerd off

Forin you do seem fairly well informed about everything else. Great input for these guys.
 
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