Pillars of Eternity, Obsidian's new CRPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 10, 2021

Agreed.

I found Tides of Numenera to be extremely difficult to get through. It's the only Iso-RPG I've played that I couldn't wait to be finished with. I didn't back it, but I followed the Kickstarter campaign and when it was finally released it was such a disappointment because it was promoted as the spiritual successor to Torment, but it wasn't even close.

Also, I agree with DoS II being an objectively better game on every axis. It's rare that a sequal captures what made an original game great while ALSO improving on everything done previously, but Larian managed to pull it off. I remember the first week or so playing DoS II and just sitting there saying to myself -- "Goddamn, this game is so fucking amazing."

Lastly, I'd disagree that the impending release of BG III necessitates the play of BG I/II. The narratives happen a century apart and they're fairly compartmentalized. Obviously, it wouldn't 'hurt' to play the originals, but I don't think they offer anything invaluable to the average player. For Toril (Faerun) lore junkies they'd be great, but I don't think Rajaah is part of that demographic. He could just watch a 10 minute YouTube video to get completely up to speed with the happenings in those games and be 'prepared' for BG III.

Ome · Oct 10, 2021

Loved Planescape Torment back in the day. Interesting characters and great writing. Torment : Tides of Shit on the other hand started off on the wrong foot trying to piggy back off the Torment name. This game was boring garbage that I never got close to finishing.

Seananigans · Oct 10, 2021

Droigan said:
New
-Pillars of Eternity 1 -Pillars of Eternity 2
Great story. Large games, but never completed them fully.

-Divinity: Original Sin -Divinity: Original Sin 2
One of my all time favourite game series. Story isn't as good as PoE 1 and 2, but the combat in DoS 1 and especially DoS 2 is so good. Low brow humor at times, typical for Larian Studios, but fantastic combat. No random encounters. Every encounter is hand crafted and on the tactical difficulty it is tactical. Can make the ground wet, add lightning, fire on it creates steam with lightning, oil + fire, sneaking with barrels placing them next to bosses. So good. Can't mess up in terms of builds since you can respec at will (at least in 2, been a while since I played 1).

-Torment: Tides of Numenera
Could never get into this. Hardly played it.

Old
-Baldur's Gate 1 and -Baldur's Gate 2
If you've never played BG1-2 then they should be a the top for story reasons since BG3 is coming. That said, Sakkath isn't wrong in saying that some of them are hard going depending on what QOL stuff you are used to.

-Icewind Dale
Think you can skip this. It was fine in the day, but similar to BG 1 - 2, but not in the same league in terms of story.

-Neverwinter Nights
Fun back in the day, but this one (for me) really is hard to get into. I did finish this and NN 2, but could never get back into them.

-Fallout and -Fallout 2
Fallout 1 - 2 are probably the easiest. No RPG mechanics really to mess up up. Straight forward leveling systems and gear upgrades is what gets you through. Great games, but again, hard to get into today. (ATOM RPG (called that on steam) is a newer homage to the Fallout games made by an indie studio.)

-Planescape Torment
Fantastic in terms of story, and not really "hard" mechanically. Very story heavy game. Iconic classic that still stands as one of the best story games ever made.

-----
Not sure on "what to play first". I'd personally recommend
- Finish PoE 1 and PoE 2 since you're already playing and like them.
- Play DOS. First one can be skipped (while still fun). DoS 2 is superior in every way. Combat mechanics in these are heavily influenced in BG 3. DoS 2 is also my favourite CRPG, so I'm biased.
- Torment- ToN. Can safely skip this.

- Old games list I'd put on the bottom. More something to visit once you've done the "new". PT, Fallout games, BG games.

I must be retarded. GF and I are playing DOS2, and I’m not aware of any way to respec at will. How do?

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 10, 2021

Seananigans said:
I must be retarded. GF and I are playing DOS2, and I’m not aware of any way to respec at will. How do?

It opens after a certain point in the game. It's fairly early on (maybe 10-15 hours into the game), but it's not available until after you leave the first map. There's a mirror on the boat that allows you to, basically, re-work an entire character.

Seananigans · Oct 10, 2021

Grabbit Allworth said:
It opens after a certain point in the game. It's fairly early on (maybe 10-15 hours into the game), but it's not available until after you leave the first map. There's a mirror on the boat that allows you to, basically, re-work an entire character.

That explains it. We’re doing everything and haven’t left the first map yet, already level 8. Didn’t figure level 8 of 20 was still “early” in the game!

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 10, 2021

Seananigans said:
That explains it. We’re doing everything and haven’t left the first map yet, already level 8. Didn’t figure level 8 of 20 was still “early” in the game!

It's been a long time since I've played DoS II, but IIRC, that's roughly the level I was when I left the first map. I know I wasn't higher than 9. Also, there isn't a level cap. My characters were level 23 and 24 when I finished it, but I did absolutely everything I could find.

However, it's pretty typical to finish the game level at 20/21. So it falls in line with your expectations of a typical level curve. Despite having a relatively high level before leaving the first map, don't let it concern you. Leveling slows down and you haven't seen/experienced anywhere close to what the game has to offer.

reavor · Oct 10, 2021

Grabbit Allworth said:
Lastly, I'd disagree that the impending release of BG III necessitates the play of BG I/II. The narratives happen a century apart and they're fairly compartmentalized. Obviously, it wouldn't 'hurt' to play the originals, but I don't think they offer anything invaluable to the average player. For Toril (Faerun) lore junkies they'd be great, but I don't think Rajaah is part of that demographic. He could just watch a 10 minute YouTube video to get completely up to speed with the happenings in those games and be 'prepared' for BG III.

Yeah, BG3 is BG in name only. Seems to have almost nothing to do with the old games, aside from being set partly in Baldur's Gate.

Rajaah · Oct 10, 2021

All this Tides of Numenera hatin' is difficult to hear because that was probably the first modern CRPG that caught my eye. Back in the late 90's I remember being really interested in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, but I was busy with console RPGs and then EQ. It wasn't until 2017 or so when I looked at some stuff about ToN that I remembered how much I like the genre despite never really getting into it. I just thought ToN had a great visual style and mood to it. Bummer that it was a big letdown for Torment fans.

Also fun fact, for years back in the day I thought it was "PlaneTscape Torment" and that it was a space RPG.

I'll go ahead and finish playing through Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 and then re-evaluate. Maybe Baldur's Gate to see where it all started, maybe Planescape for the story.

Had a friend ten years ago or so who had the same taste in games as me, and I remember she once told me in 2007 or so that the 4 best games she'd ever played were a statistical tie between Bioshock, Chrono Trigger, Morrowind, and Planescape: Torment. So Planescape has a really strong pedigree with me based on that recommendation putting it up there with 3 of my favorite games.

Back to Pillars of Eternity, are monks fine? My MC is a hot female monk and I read somewhere (probably somewhere in this thread) that monks fall apart as the game goes on. If so, any class suggestions on something powerful that'll breeze through the game? Not to shortchange it but we've got a list to get through.

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 10, 2021

Rajaah said:
Back to Pillars of Eternity, are monks fine? My MC is a hot female monk and I read somewhere (probably somewhere in this thread) that monks fall apart as the game goes on. If so, any class suggestions on something powerful that'll breeze through the game? Not to shortchange it but we've got a list to get through.

The Monk class has never appealed to me, but for PoE 1, I went out on a limb and played one because their take on Monk with a mechanic based on taking damage/wounds was interesting. I had absolutely no problems finishing the game with that character.

Rajaah · Oct 10, 2021

What about Deadfire, any OP class for that one?

I'd kinda like to play a Necro in some of these. I hear Warrior/Rogue hybrid dominates in some of the older CRPGs.

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 10, 2021

Rajaah said:
What about Deadfire, any OP class for that one?

I'd kinda like to play a Necro in some of these. I hear Warrior/Rogue hybrid dominates in some of the older CRPGs.

Not a clue. I'm not a min/max'er. I've never looked up a build guide for a single one of these games.

I played a Rogue for Deadfire and had a great time, but I really can't help you with some kind of game-breaking character. It's just not my thing.

And honestly, I doubt it'd have that much impact on the game, overall.

Raes · Oct 10, 2021

Rajaah said:
What about Deadfire, any OP class for that one?

I'd kinda like to play a Necro in some of these. I hear Warrior/Rogue hybrid dominates in some of the older CRPGs.

In PoE 2 each party npc has 2 classes you can choose from, or you can choose both (multiclass) which is sometimes a special class specific to that npc. The first party member you get can be Fighter, Rogue, or both.

sakkath · Oct 10, 2021

I don't even remember what classes I played for poe1/2.

Seconding the recommendation for Tyranny, that game was a lot of fun even though it was clearly incomplete.

reavor · Oct 10, 2021

for most of these games class strength changes with patches. for PoE2 the summoner chanter was insanely strong at release as I recall, then the summons were nerfed pretty hard. monks for most of these types of games require a bit more finesse when playing, especially in the beginning, a bit like wizards but in melee. classes like rangers that get pets are almost always solid choices. I finished the game on hardest difficulty using a paladin/chanter (bard) multiclass.

Burns · Oct 11, 2021

Rajaah said:
Asked a similar question in the Souls thread, and this is probably the best thread for this question. Any suggestions on an order to play these in? I've got a lot of CRPGs on my radar and no idea where to start. I've started with Pillars 1 but I'm curious which ones are easier/better for beginners etc.

New
-Pillars of Eternity 1
-Pillars of Eternity 2
-Divinity: Original Sin
-Divinity: Original Sin 2
-Torment: Tides of Numenera

Old
-Baldur's Gate 1
-Baldur's Gate 2
-Icewind Dale
-Neverwinter Nights
-Fallout
-Fallout 2
-Planescape Torment

I'll take any easiest-to-hardest order, or suggestions on which ones are beginner friendly, etc. Also, if any of these "aren't worth it" and should be dropped from the list, but I highly doubt that. The only one I've played at all is Pillars and it makes total sense to me so I'm inclined to do that one first.

For BG 1 & 2, you can use a mod to make them into one single mega game using the BG2 engine and UI. Unless you are a purist and want to experience each one as they were, I think you gain more than you lose.

This installer program makes merging the two Enhanced Editions a breeze, just ignore everything but "Enhanced Edition Trilogy" (EET for short): EET Install Tool BWS-EE
Link directly to EET install page, if you would rather go through the extra steps: Download links

As for what order to play the games:

As reavor said, there is some value to playing the older ones first, so you aren't longing for all the modern conveniences while playing, but if you are coming off of PoE 1/2, it may be too late on that front.

That said, the older games can be easier to build out a character as long as you stay away from multiclassing. After you get done with PoE I would think about jumping right to BG 1&2, to, at the very least, get a feel for the old games, and set the tone for Planescape: Torment. If you want a change in setting after the BG Trilogy, you can jump to Fallout 2 or 1, or both, before trying PS:T.

For the Fallout games, if you are having issue with the oldness of FO1, they are more loosely related to each other than the BG games, so the order doesn't matter as much. You will just miss out on the multitude of Easter Eggs from the first game planted in the second.

After PS:T, if you want more of the old type games, go with Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, then Icewind Dale, and if really feeling it, Temple of Elemental Evil.

Neverwinter Nights 1/2 are the games that show their age the most, due to the choice the developers made to go 3D. NWN2 is much easier to get into but difficult to recommend where to start. The Mask of the Betrayer xpac is top notch and as good as the other games, but the original campaign is weak. I don't think you lose much by making a high level toon for Mask and skipping the OC, but I haven't played any of them since release. Mask is worth the price of the game, alone, even if you skip everything else about NWN2. The Storm of Zahir xpac is also a decent campaign and I don't think it was related to the OC at all.

For modern games:

DoS 1 & 2 are great, have a less serious tone, but better combat.

Tides of Numenera - I agree with most of the others, it was mediocre at best.

Tyranny was great, it's a shame it got cut short and the IP left for dead.

Pathfinder games are my favorite "modern" game, but it's probably because it is most like the classics. They are the most complicated, mechanically.

Wasteland 2 & 3 were both good, with the Fallout feel. I liked 2 over 3.

There are a handful of good indie games if you get through all the previous stuff and want more.

Rajaah · Oct 11, 2021

sakkath said:
I don't even remember what classes I played for poe1/2.

Seconding the recommendation for Tyranny, that game was a lot of fun even though it was clearly incomplete.

I noticed Tyranny came out November 10th 2016. Wonder if the developers were saying something political.

Carrion is another game where you play as the "villain", though it isn't a CRPG, it's more of a Metroidvania. Fans of John Carpenter's The Thing might want to check it out since it's basically you playing as a similar monster.

Grabbit Allworth said:
Not a clue. I'm not a min/max'er. I've never looked up a build guide for a single one of these games.

I played a Rogue for Deadfire and had a great time, but I really can't help you with some kind of game-breaking character. It's just not my thing.

And honestly, I doubt it'd have that much impact on the game, overall.

Yeah, I can respect that. I also usually just play things for fun without min-maxing, but I like to be OP sometimes. As long as I'm not underpowered I'm good.

Burns said:
For BG 1 & 2, you can use a mod to make them into one single mega game using the BG2 engine and UI. Unless you are a purist and want to experience each one as they were, I think you gain more than you lose.

This installer program makes merging the two Enhanced Editions a breeze, just ignore everything but "Enhanced Edition Trilogy" (EET for short): EET Install Tool BWS-EE
Link directly to EET install page, if you would rather go through the extra steps: Download links

As for what order to play the games:

As reavor said, there is some value to playing the older ones first, so you aren't longing for all the modern conveniences while playing, but if you are coming off of PoE 1/2, it may be too late on that front.

That said, the older games can be easier to build out a character as long as you stay away from multiclassing. After you get done with PoE I would think about jumping right to BG 1&2, to, at the very least, get a feel for the old games, and set the tone for Planescape: Torment. If you want a change in setting after the BG Trilogy, you can jump to Fallout 2 or 1, or both, before trying PS:T.

For the Fallout games, if you are having issue with the oldness of FO1, they are more loosely related to each other than the BG games, so the order doesn't matter as much. You will just miss out on the multitude of Easter Eggs from the first game planted in the second.

After PS:T, if you want more of the old type games, go with Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, then Icewind Dale, and if really feeling it, Temple of Elemental Evil.

Neverwinter Nights 1/2 are the games that show their age the most, due to the choice the developers made to go 3D. NWN2 is much easier to get into but difficult to recommend where to start. The Mask of the Betrayer xpac is top notch and as good as the other games, but the original campaign is weak. I don't think you lose much by making a high level toon for Mask and skipping the OC, but I haven't played any of them since release. Mask is worth the price of the game, alone, even if you skip everything else about NWN2. The Storm of Zahir xpac is also a decent campaign and I don't think it was related to the OC at all.

For modern games:

DoS 1 & 2 are great, have a less serious tone, but better combat.
Tides of Numenera - I agree with most of the others, it was mediocre at best.
Tyranny was great, it's a shame it got cut short and the IP left for dead.
Pathfinder games are my favorite "modern" game, but it's probably because it is most like the classics. They are the most complicated, mechanically.
Wasteland 2 & 3 were both good, with the Fallout feel. I liked 2 over 3.
There are a handful of good indie games if you get through all the previous stuff and want more.

Lots of good info here. I know the Pathfinder games are the best, but it's the mechanical complications that warded me away from those (for now). Maybe if I do the rest of this list (or all of the key players anyway) I'll swing around and hit up Pathfinder 1+2 once I'm better at this. Course that might be years away. Just PoE1+2, BG 1+2, and Planescape 1(+ maybe 2) are going to probably take me another 2-3 years if I'm lucky at my rate of play and everything else I've got on deck.

I was a huge AD&D nut growing up. Didn't really play it so much as studied all the manuals and modules. I've still got all the first-edition D&D books. I think I said it before but it amazes me that I never got into the D&D-inspired CRPGs growing up. It was just EQ and JRPGs, which were good in their own ways, but I missed out.

I never played any Ultima games either, would be cool if the main 10 (and Akalabeth) got some kind of modernization.

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 11, 2021

Burns said:
Arcanum and Temple of Elemental Evil.

I almost completely forgot about these two games.

I never finished Arcanum, but I did complete ToEE. However, it was hot garbage for years until the mod community fixed it. Circle of 8, I think they were called. They really turned ToEE around and made it a great game.

Grabbit Allworth · Oct 11, 2021

Rajaah said:
I noticed Tyranny came out November 10th 2016. Wonder if the developers were saying something political.

I didn't notice anything, at least not relating to modern politics and I'm hyper-sensitive to woke, political trash. It's a great game.

Burns · Oct 11, 2021

Rajaah said:
I noticed Tyranny came out November 10th 2016. Wonder if the developers were saying something political.

Carrion is another game where you play as the "villain", though it isn't a CRPG, it's more of a Metroidvania. Fans of John Carpenter's The Thing might want to check it out since it's basically you playing as a similar monster.

Yeah, I can respect that. I also usually just play things for fun without min-maxing, but I like to be OP sometimes. As long as I'm not underpowered I'm good.

Lots of good info here. I know the Pathfinder games are the best, but it's the mechanical complications that warded me away from those (for now). Maybe if I do the rest of this list (or all of the key players anyway) I'll swing around and hit up Pathfinder 1+2 once I'm better at this. Course that might be years away. Just PoE1+2, BG 1+2, and Planescape 1(+ maybe 2) are going to probably take me another 2-3 years if I'm lucky at my rate of play and everything else I've got on deck.

I was a huge AD&D nut growing up. Didn't really play it so much as studied all the manuals and modules. I've still got all the first-edition D&D books. I think I said it before but it amazes me that I never got into the D&D-inspired CRPGs growing up. It was just EQ and JRPGs, which were good in their own ways, but I missed out.

I never played any Ultima games either, would be cool if the main 10 (and Akalabeth) got some kind of modernization.

Ultima games are weird, I loved Ultima 7 and 7.2 as a kid (even thought 8 was decent), but when I tried to go back and replay them, I found it too simple, and lost interest about half way. It may be due to still remembering 70%+ of the world and story, and the most enjoyable part of those games was just exploring. Still, I think if people can tolerate pixel gfx like Minecraft, U7 is fine to play. You don't need to play any of the early ones to understand 7 either.

Someone did faithfully port Ultima 6 into the Dungeon Siege game engine, but Dungeon Siege has those early days 3d gfx, so it can still be tough to get into.

A separate team also ported Ultima 5 into Dungeon Siege. I haven't played it, but the wiki states that they rewrote dialog to add more quests and give it more depth.

Caliane · Mar 14, 2023

Bumping this, to talk about Pillers 2 specifically, instead of talking about it in the pathfinder, or baldurs gate thread. although, kindof funny the last converstation here was identical to the one that was going on in baldurs gate haha.

I'm a bit surprised the consensus was so low on Pillars 2. and, I suppose its poor sales reflected that. going back to Pillars 2 after Pathfinder wotr, I am very impressed. especially after going back and finishing pillars 1 first, to import my choices. pillars 1 was a struggle to finish. pillars 2, I'm kindof loving. maybe a 7 or 8/10, akin to Kingmaker.

I wonder if the dlc, and updates really did alot to help? I see that 5.0 patch noted here, which seems to have been a big one. This is such a massive, massive improvement over pillars 1 though.

none of you told me about the sea shanties. which are all created for the game. listen to the lyrics.

The crit role crews overuse is an issue imho. like, ok, using them is fine. but why is sam playing 13 different characters all in the same exact voice?

It took me quite a while to realize Maia was Marisha. at which point I realized its just that marisha is a moron, that I dislike her. Her voice and Voice acting is good. shes great if someone else writes what shes saying. haha.
xoti is 100% laura's current crit role character. not just accent. like its the same character. dreams, visions, everything. (maia and beau are pretty close to the same. and double checking. 1/2028 for s2 of crit role. so, she likely had Just finished maia voicework.)
Liam is almost unrecognizable as Serafen most times as well. Doing great work there. I wish he did that in other roles..
took me a minute to catch travis as tekehu. although I didnt run him in party much.

Pillars of Eternity, Obsidian's new CRPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate

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