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Tuco

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Again, why?

in what scenario do they need to propagate the hive at the current human population levels?

If its a bioweapon to enslave a planet for an alien species to use as a labor force? Then why release all the animals? Why do no harm to other living things? obviously they can't feed the 7 billion survivors with these restrictions in place so your slave population is gonna be mostly dead by the time the aliens arrive.

If its not an alien bioweapon meant to enslave, then what is its purpose? To wipe off intelligent life/threats so an alien can claim the resources of the planet? A naturally evolved hivemind species that just wants to live in peace and harmony and spread its genes throughout the galaxy? Either way there is no need (and more importantly, no ability) to maintain current human population levels, most of the people need to be culled, and its most efficient to start with the useless mouths like toddlers and below. Even if it wants to maintain a small human presence it can easily produce a few offspring every 5 years for replenishment stock, once the population is stable and its already accomplished whatever its main goal was.

Edit: im not saying they are gonna kill anyone, they can't. But since there isn't enough food to go around, where human beings would prioritize women and children eating first, I think the hive will let them children/eldery/etc starve. For example, I rewatched the opening scene and there was only 4 patients wheeled out of that hospital, one of which was zoshia. one was on a stretcher, one old man in a wheel chair, and another who was fully ambulatory. It could be just lack of extras or foresight for what is just a set piece shot, or it could be a hint that their idea of triage is in fact alien and lacks humanity.
I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
 
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Tuco

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Inverse square law applies to radiation as well as everything else even in space.

the size of Africa comment refers to either needing an incredible power source or alternatively, and more pragmatically, a giant antenna will have a much larger g/t coefficient.

Usually for receive side but applies the same way in this fashion, they are just relaying in backwards in writing.

it’s much more logical to assume a sophisticated civilization has the material and power generation required to produce a signal into a delivery system that does not require gigantic feats of engineering. E.g., if an advanced civilization was sending out this recipe with the goal of hitting as many living areas as possible…it would be a station in outer space, or some type of planet with no atmosphere.
I hope it's a massive feat of engineering that's required, and that the entire planet is being dedicated to build a similar communication device to send a response to that planet. I've always loved the sci-fi concept of "If we brutally dedicated our economy to building something, what could we accomplish?"

I loved this book:



and these movies:

 

SeanDoe1z1

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I hope it's a massive feat of engineering that's required, and that the entire planet is being dedicated to build a similar communication device to send a response to that planet. I've always loved the sci-fi concept of "If we brutally dedicated our economy to building something, what could we accomplish?"

I loved this book:



and these movies:




This is kind of what I was trying to derive from my garbage.


We evolved very specifically to communicate to humans. And humans very specifically within our digital (and analog) systems.

Just weird to think about. I can change a xxx.xxx.xxx.202 to xxx.xxx.xxx.201 and break a communication system for example, rendering it unusable to its users.

Makes more sense this is some type of computer program using humans as a peripherals, a finite resource. It's obvious human life is not paramount to its survival, but the most promising vector. Very childlike in its decisions, like it's maturing.
 

Attog

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I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
I really like your #1. Kind of a cool way of "terraforming" other worlds so long as you don't care about massacring all intelligent life.
 

Sylas

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I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
Yeah I agree, I just don't buy the unreliable narrator angle. You don't establish the rules of your universe, have your protagonist waste multiple episodes to painstakingly bumble through to test and verify those rules, just to turn around later on go "aha, we could lie the whole time, we just chose not to until we wrote ourselves into a corner in which we needed to lie to get out of!" Establishing expectations just to immediately subvert them is hack writing, this isn't season 8 Game of Thrones or the last jedi, vince isn't a hack.

it's probably more important to work out the rules, that should lead to being able to figure out the who. Like the prime directives the hive has, there seems to be a priority to them.

So they established that self preservation is not #1, their desire to make others happy takes precedence (giving carol a grenade then almost sacrificing zoshia to save her when she immediately pulled the pin)

Do no harm seems to be higher than self preservation as well, they won't harm animals even if it means they would die. Surely releasing lions and shit ends up killing some of the hive, as well as allowing mosquitos to bite you instead of killing them...mosquitos are the deadliest creature on earth to humans.

But, do no harm is not the same as "preserving life". They went ahead and activated their plan for mass take over of the earth despite the fact that it killed almost 1 billion people. They have self preservation, but it seems its only applies to preventing the extinction of the hive itself. They seem willing to sacrifice individual members of the hive at whim.

preserving life is there but it's not that high, they were still treating hive people who were sick at the hospital but (unless it was just a bad shot/editing) there was only a small handful evacuated from the hospital, doubtful that most died during the joining, it seems that they may have stopped putting resources to (ie sacrificed) the weakest already.

It seems their #1 priority other than preventing total eradication of the hive, is to figuring out how to convert the remaining immunes. This is more than just an academic exercise, if they had ulterior motives they could just let the immunes die and autopsy them, or at the very least, if they could, they would have just killed carol since the other 11 immunes seem perfectly happy living with the hive, would consent to tests and seem willing to join once they figure out why they didnt take initially.

But after carol drugged zoshia to try and figure out how to reverse the process, they decided to no longer interact with her in person. They still have the instinct to make her happy, but they are now showing self preservation (since its a threat against the hive).

So it seems to me:

#1 prevent extinction of the hive
#2 ensure 100% conversion rate to the hive
#3 keep all non converted happy until they are joined to the hive
#3 do no harm
#4 preserve life

They are more concerned in converting the 12 remaining immunes than they were with killing a billion people, or allowing millions to die at a time by allowing carol to roam free and scream at them. So it isn't about total numbers (for slave labor or whatever), but it is about total conquest (either to eradicate life or keep it docile and unwilling to hinder the aliens)
But once she was a threat to just discovering information about how to reverse it, they backed away. I think if she actually has any breakthrough here and actually figures out how to stop the hive, then they would be allowed to kill her. idk i guess that seems obvious, just spelling it out for my own benefit i suppose.

edit: I also think that means that she isn't going to have any breakthroughs any time soon, it'll be several seasons of finding or converting immune to her "cause', trickle feeding new lore and bits for her to figure out, etc. The moment she knows how to cure them this turns into the walking dead and the whole show changes
 
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Fadaar

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my personal favorite theory is this is how The Matrix actually started, this is just the prequel. everything Morpheus and others thought was oh so wrong.


On a more serious note, I wonder if Gilligan stopped after writing each episode and said to himself "what will people question and nitpick the most about?" and then started from that point for the next episode. Rinse repeat.
 
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Wombat

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As mentioned in the movie thread for it, the thing you think is a plot twist happens 25% of the way through the book, and that is really just introducing the second lead character in the movie, as well as distinguishing the plot from the otherwise very similar The Martian.

Going back to the show, as far as whether it needs to keep everyone alive for intelligence reasons, The Network Effect really refers to the value / productivity of the network, not the capacity - someone signing up for their first email address increases the number of people everyone else can email by one (the new signup), but doesn't suddenly allow that network to have new functionality it didn't have previously (going from emails to high def video feeds) because of that one signup.

In Earth animals, brain size is only very loosely related to intelligence (like a 0.25 coefficient), and is affected by a ton of factors such as the maximum brain size that can fit in a given species' skull, the maximum skull size that can fit through that species' vaginal canal, whether that species' diet has the excess nutrients to even make larger brains, the social structure and child rearing capabilities/necessities of the species (if you gave deer human brains but also made them incapable of even walking on their own for the first ~year like a human, would any of them survive / could any of their parents keep them alive to reproduce?), and even the size of the species - whales have brains 5x larger than human brains, but have to spend a ton of their capacity on monitoring and controlling their much larger bodies.

Then again, we also don't even know what the hivemind is after. In evolutionary terms, if it can build another radio tower to transmit to the next planet down the line, then it's arguably reproduced itself and has already won, genetically / memetically speaking.
 

Chanur

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my personal favorite theory is this is how The Matrix actually started, this is just the prequel. everything Morpheus and others thought was oh so wrong.


On a more serious note, I wonder if Gilligan stopped after writing each episode and said to himself "what will people question and nitpick the most about?" and then started from that point for the next episode. Rinse repeat.
I have seen theories that the signal is from an AI.
 

Tuco

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This is kind of what I was trying to derive from my garbage.


We evolved very specifically to communicate to humans. And humans very specifically within our digital (and analog) systems.

Just weird to think about. I can change a xxx.xxx.xxx.202 to xxx.xxx.xxx.201 and break a communication system for example, rendering it unusable to its users.

Makes more sense this is some type of computer program using humans as a peripherals, a finite resource. It's obvious human life is not paramount to its survival, but the most promising vector. Very childlike in its decisions, like it's maturing.
How will we communicate to aliens??? Is one of the fun concepts of scifi. I would contend any advanced species can communicate over the electromagnetic spectrum, it's just a matter of interpretting the date. After aliens in Contact taught Jodie Foster to build an interdimensional gateway I think it's ok to accept some random RNA sequence can be sent, the bigger question is how they can formulate a compatible RNA sequence for humans, which I have to imagine wouldn't evolve independently. Either they visited earth or they share a common ancestor.
 

Khane

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I have seen theories that the signal is from an AI.

I would hope not because that's what I giving Gilligan credit for not doing. That would be some JJ Abrams or D&D hack writing. AI or Billionaires masquerading as aliens. Please no.
 
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Chanur

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I would hope not because that's what I giving Gilligan credit for not doing. That would be some JJ Abrams or D&D hack writing. AI or Billionaires masquerading as aliens. Please no.
I don't see how it could be Billionaires but an Alien AI is absolutely a possibility.
 

velk

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How will we communicate to aliens??? Is one of the fun concepts of scifi. I would contend any advanced species can communicate over the electromagnetic spectrum, it's just a matter of interpretting the date. After aliens in Contact taught Jodie Foster to build an interdimensional gateway I think it's ok to accept some random RNA sequence can be sent, the bigger question is how they can formulate a compatible RNA sequence for humans, which I have to imagine wouldn't evolve independently. Either they visited earth or they share a common ancestor.

Yeah, the aliens knowing enough about human genetics and psychology that this plan worked is almost as implausible as the FTL comms needed for the hive mind to work.

Maybe less so on the signal frequency and encoding - there's nothing to say this was the only broadcast they were doing - they easily could have been broadcasting 10 million different encoding schemes and this was the only one that humans noticed.

It was pretty much 100% an own goal for humanity though - they did offer a bit of a fig leaf by saying the researchers had been going for ages with nothing happening, but the idea there weren't armed men waiting to shoot them the instant they started acting weird seems like the USAMRIID was being run by the cast of the muppets. Shit, even having the door to the lab only openable from the outside seems like the bare minimum of security you'd want there.
 
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