Pluribus

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
50,439
92,506
Again, why?

in what scenario do they need to propagate the hive at the current human population levels?

If its a bioweapon to enslave a planet for an alien species to use as a labor force? Then why release all the animals? Why do no harm to other living things? obviously they can't feed the 7 billion survivors with these restrictions in place so your slave population is gonna be mostly dead by the time the aliens arrive.

If its not an alien bioweapon meant to enslave, then what is its purpose? To wipe off intelligent life/threats so an alien can claim the resources of the planet? A naturally evolved hivemind species that just wants to live in peace and harmony and spread its genes throughout the galaxy? Either way there is no need (and more importantly, no ability) to maintain current human population levels, most of the people need to be culled, and its most efficient to start with the useless mouths like toddlers and below. Even if it wants to maintain a small human presence it can easily produce a few offspring every 5 years for replenishment stock, once the population is stable and its already accomplished whatever its main goal was.

Edit: im not saying they are gonna kill anyone, they can't. But since there isn't enough food to go around, where human beings would prioritize women and children eating first, I think the hive will let them children/eldery/etc starve. For example, I rewatched the opening scene and there was only 4 patients wheeled out of that hospital, one of which was zoshia. one was on a stretcher, one old man in a wheel chair, and another who was fully ambulatory. It could be just lack of extras or foresight for what is just a set piece shot, or it could be a hint that their idea of triage is in fact alien and lacks humanity.
I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
 
Last edited:

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
50,439
92,506
Inverse square law applies to radiation as well as everything else even in space.

the size of Africa comment refers to either needing an incredible power source or alternatively, and more pragmatically, a giant antenna will have a much larger g/t coefficient.

Usually for receive side but applies the same way in this fashion, they are just relaying in backwards in writing.

it’s much more logical to assume a sophisticated civilization has the material and power generation required to produce a signal into a delivery system that does not require gigantic feats of engineering. E.g., if an advanced civilization was sending out this recipe with the goal of hitting as many living areas as possible…it would be a station in outer space, or some type of planet with no atmosphere.
I hope it's a massive feat of engineering that's required, and that the entire planet is being dedicated to build a similar communication device to send a response to that planet. I've always loved the sci-fi concept of "If we brutally dedicated our economy to building something, what could we accomplish?"

I loved this book:



and these movies:

 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

SeanDoe1z1

Avatar of War Slayer
7,490
19,220
I hope it's a massive feat of engineering that's required, and that the entire planet is being dedicated to build a similar communication device to send a response to that planet. I've always loved the sci-fi concept of "If we brutally dedicated our economy to building something, what could we accomplish?"

I loved this book:



and these movies:




This is kind of what I was trying to derive from my garbage.


We evolved very specifically to communicate to humans. And humans very specifically within our digital (and analog) systems.

Just weird to think about. I can change a xxx.xxx.xxx.202 to xxx.xxx.xxx.201 and break a communication system for example, rendering it unusable to its users.

Makes more sense this is some type of computer program using humans as a peripherals, a finite resource. It's obvious human life is not paramount to its survival, but the most promising vector. Very childlike in its decisions, like it's maturing.
 

Attog

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,554
2,054
I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
I really like your #1. Kind of a cool way of "terraforming" other worlds so long as you don't care about massacring all intelligent life.
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
5,092
7,110
I'm pretty much on the same page as you on those being the big question for the show in terms of the strategy from the virus. I hope it has a satisfying answer and think Vince Gilligan et all deserve our trust enough to be interested.

My current thought for the answer to "Why are these aliens so peaceful, even to the own obvious detriment of the sentient species?"
1. In the alien enslavement scenario, ingraining peace into the species minimizes the chance of them going to war to satisfy their other imperatives before the aliens show up, and reduces the chance of them being disruptive afterward. The aliens probably don't want whatever food crop the humans cultivated anyway and would rather not have a civilization with billion of chickens. They also likely don't need 8 billion humans to do whatever they need. It's also possible they want basically zero humans and just need to cuck the sentient race to create a basic garden planet whenever they show up in the next millenia. They could be sitting there with a giant antenna blasting out Cuck Rays in sequence to every star near them indefinitely, and Earth has been getting blasted for thousands of years and we finally paid attention.

2. In the Mass Effect forced peace scenario, even if it results in an immediate mass death scenario where all but 10 million people die, a planet where the sentient race just kinda has a big ass garden with at most a billion people on it is probably ideal. Certainly is a better end result than total extermination except now they have a giant human skeleton spaceship to fly around in.

3. Or they ramped up pesticides en-masse and are growing absurd amounts of corn, potatoes, rice etc to make soylent amber. And their peaceful bullshit is just an unreliable narrator who deceived the independent humans. This is the least interesting option.

So yeah, I think after the last episode focusing on logistics, in this season we'll almost certainly see Carol discover how many humans are expected to starve to death in the next year.
Yeah I agree, I just don't buy the unreliable narrator angle. You don't establish the rules of your universe, have your protagonist waste multiple episodes to painstakingly bumble through to test and verify those rules, just to turn around later on go "aha, we could lie the whole time, we just chose not to until we wrote ourselves into a corner in which we needed to lie to get out of!" Establishing expectations just to immediately subvert them is hack writing, this isn't season 8 Game of Thrones or the last jedi, vince isn't a hack.

it's probably more important to work out the rules, that should lead to being able to figure out the who. Like the prime directives the hive has, there seems to be a priority to them.

So they established that self preservation is not #1, their desire to make others happy takes precedence (giving carol a grenade then almost sacrificing zoshia to save her when she immediately pulled the pin)

Do no harm seems to be higher than self preservation as well, they won't harm animals even if it means they would die. Surely releasing lions and shit ends up killing some of the hive, as well as allowing mosquitos to bite you instead of killing them...mosquitos are the deadliest creature on earth to humans.

But, do no harm is not the same as "preserving life". They went ahead and activated their plan for mass take over of the earth despite the fact that it killed almost 1 billion people. They have self preservation, but it seems its only applies to preventing the extinction of the hive itself. They seem willing to sacrifice individual members of the hive at whim.

preserving life is there but it's not that high, they were still treating hive people who were sick at the hospital but (unless it was just a bad shot/editing) there was only a small handful evacuated from the hospital, doubtful that most died during the joining, it seems that they may have stopped putting resources to (ie sacrificed) the weakest already.

It seems their #1 priority other than preventing total eradication of the hive, is to figuring out how to convert the remaining immunes. This is more than just an academic exercise, if they had ulterior motives they could just let the immunes die and autopsy them, or at the very least, if they could, they would have just killed carol since the other 11 immunes seem perfectly happy living with the hive, would consent to tests and seem willing to join once they figure out why they didnt take initially.

But after carol drugged zoshia to try and figure out how to reverse the process, they decided to no longer interact with her in person. They still have the instinct to make her happy, but they are now showing self preservation (since its a threat against the hive).

So it seems to me:

#1 prevent extinction of the hive
#2 ensure 100% conversion rate to the hive
#3 keep all non converted happy until they are joined to the hive
#3 do no harm
#4 preserve life

They are more concerned in converting the 12 remaining immunes than they were with killing a billion people, or allowing millions to die at a time by allowing carol to roam free and scream at them. So it isn't about total numbers (for slave labor or whatever), but it is about total conquest (either to eradicate life or keep it docile and unwilling to hinder the aliens)
But once she was a threat to just discovering information about how to reverse it, they backed away. I think if she actually has any breakthrough here and actually figures out how to stop the hive, then they would be allowed to kill her. idk i guess that seems obvious, just spelling it out for my own benefit i suppose.

edit: I also think that means that she isn't going to have any breakthroughs any time soon, it'll be several seasons of finding or converting immune to her "cause', trickle feeding new lore and bits for her to figure out, etc. The moment she knows how to cure them this turns into the walking dead and the whole show changes
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Fadaar

That guy
11,564
12,890
my personal favorite theory is this is how The Matrix actually started, this is just the prequel. everything Morpheus and others thought was oh so wrong.


On a more serious note, I wonder if Gilligan stopped after writing each episode and said to himself "what will people question and nitpick the most about?" and then started from that point for the next episode. Rinse repeat.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Wombat

Trakanon Raider
2,601
1,271
As mentioned in the movie thread for it, the thing you think is a plot twist happens 25% of the way through the book, and that is really just introducing the second lead character in the movie, as well as distinguishing the plot from the otherwise very similar The Martian.

Going back to the show, as far as whether it needs to keep everyone alive for intelligence reasons, The Network Effect really refers to the value / productivity of the network, not the capacity - someone signing up for their first email address increases the number of people everyone else can email by one (the new signup), but doesn't suddenly allow that network to have new functionality it didn't have previously (going from emails to high def video feeds) because of that one signup.

In Earth animals, brain size is only very loosely related to intelligence (like a 0.25 coefficient), and is affected by a ton of factors such as the maximum brain size that can fit in a given species' skull, the maximum skull size that can fit through that species' vaginal canal, whether that species' diet has the excess nutrients to even make larger brains, the social structure and child rearing capabilities/necessities of the species (if you gave deer human brains but also made them incapable of even walking on their own for the first ~year like a human, would any of them survive / could any of their parents keep them alive to reproduce?), and even the size of the species - whales have brains 5x larger than human brains, but have to spend a ton of their capacity on monitoring and controlling their much larger bodies.

Then again, we also don't even know what the hivemind is after. In evolutionary terms, if it can build another radio tower to transmit to the next planet down the line, then it's arguably reproduced itself and has already won, genetically / memetically speaking.
 

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
<Gold Donor>
34,267
62,049
my personal favorite theory is this is how The Matrix actually started, this is just the prequel. everything Morpheus and others thought was oh so wrong.


On a more serious note, I wonder if Gilligan stopped after writing each episode and said to himself "what will people question and nitpick the most about?" and then started from that point for the next episode. Rinse repeat.
I have seen theories that the signal is from an AI.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
50,439
92,506
This is kind of what I was trying to derive from my garbage.


We evolved very specifically to communicate to humans. And humans very specifically within our digital (and analog) systems.

Just weird to think about. I can change a xxx.xxx.xxx.202 to xxx.xxx.xxx.201 and break a communication system for example, rendering it unusable to its users.

Makes more sense this is some type of computer program using humans as a peripherals, a finite resource. It's obvious human life is not paramount to its survival, but the most promising vector. Very childlike in its decisions, like it's maturing.
How will we communicate to aliens??? Is one of the fun concepts of scifi. I would contend any advanced species can communicate over the electromagnetic spectrum, it's just a matter of interpretting the date. After aliens in Contact taught Jodie Foster to build an interdimensional gateway I think it's ok to accept some random RNA sequence can be sent, the bigger question is how they can formulate a compatible RNA sequence for humans, which I have to imagine wouldn't evolve independently. Either they visited earth or they share a common ancestor.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
21,400
15,302
I have seen theories that the signal is from an AI.

I would hope not because that's what I giving Gilligan credit for not doing. That would be some JJ Abrams or D&D hack writing. AI or Billionaires masquerading as aliens. Please no.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
<Gold Donor>
34,267
62,049
I would hope not because that's what I giving Gilligan credit for not doing. That would be some JJ Abrams or D&D hack writing. AI or Billionaires masquerading as aliens. Please no.
I don't see how it could be Billionaires but an Alien AI is absolutely a possibility.
 

velk

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,828
1,420
How will we communicate to aliens??? Is one of the fun concepts of scifi. I would contend any advanced species can communicate over the electromagnetic spectrum, it's just a matter of interpretting the date. After aliens in Contact taught Jodie Foster to build an interdimensional gateway I think it's ok to accept some random RNA sequence can be sent, the bigger question is how they can formulate a compatible RNA sequence for humans, which I have to imagine wouldn't evolve independently. Either they visited earth or they share a common ancestor.

Yeah, the aliens knowing enough about human genetics and psychology that this plan worked is almost as implausible as the FTL comms needed for the hive mind to work.

Maybe less so on the signal frequency and encoding - there's nothing to say this was the only broadcast they were doing - they easily could have been broadcasting 10 million different encoding schemes and this was the only one that humans noticed.

It was pretty much 100% an own goal for humanity though - they did offer a bit of a fig leaf by saying the researchers had been going for ages with nothing happening, but the idea there weren't armed men waiting to shoot them the instant they started acting weird seems like the USAMRIID was being run by the cast of the muppets. Shit, even having the door to the lab only openable from the outside seems like the bare minimum of security you'd want there.
 
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 1 user

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
5,092
7,110
Yeah, the aliens knowing enough about human genetics and psychology that this plan worked is almost as implausible as the FTL comms needed for the hive mind to work.

Maybe less so on the signal frequency and encoding - there's nothing to say this was the only broadcast they were doing - they easily could have been broadcasting 10 million different encoding schemes and this was the only one that humans noticed.

It was pretty much 100% an own goal for humanity though - they did offer a bit of a fig leaf by saying the researchers had been going for ages with nothing happening, but the idea there weren't armed men waiting to shoot them the instant they started acting weird seems like the USAMRIID was being run by the cast of the muppets. Shit, even having the door to the lab only openable from the outside seems like the bare minimum of security you'd want there.
pointed it out before but yeah, it was targeted which means they have to have visited before. The signal is from 600 LY away and the furthest our radio signals has traveled in space is 90LY (ignoring attenuation reducing that signal strength to the point that it's indistinguishable from background radiation). It was a narrow beam signal shot straight at us, or at least, that our orbit put us into the line to receive it, and we had only just now started to receive it. I mean its possible that the source signal is just randomly firing signals in random directions all willy nilly but i'm guessing no.

So at the very least an advanced party/scout ship/robot probe or something has observed us to the point to be able to decipher our signals and get a good understanding of our biology, at least that's what i'm sticking with for the handwave that part.

Where it does break down though is the FTL part. The signal was sent the old fashioned way which means it took 600 LY to arrive...unless they modulated their signal to appear redshifted 600ly and it was sent from jupiter or some shit? I mean...why? If the aliens visited 600 years ago they couldnt' have interpreted our radio communications since we didn't fucking have any, and there's no telling how we would of developed...the logic starts to get real circular real quick.

ignoring that for now, the Hive requires FTL communication to work which means its not a huge stretch that the probe or scout ship also has FTL communication to relay the intel back to the homeworld before heading off to the next planet to investigate. The aliens maybe don't have FTL travel themselves though, otherwise why not just visit in person, why waste 600 years sending a signal through space?

edit: I'm not sure why but i've developed this fear that this is going to end up going biblical/religious in some way. We were visited 2000 years ago by an alien who observed us and walked amongst us, he returned to his homeworld but promised to one day return to bring peace to mankind. Now that he had returned their only concern is in bringing in the last remaining people into the fold...yada yada.
 
Last edited:

Burns

Avatar of War Slayer
8,750
16,875
a lot of words for "yeah I was wrong, my bad"

Don't worry I forgive you.

Another thing I noticed on 2nd viewing of the first episode, they do kind of spell out exactly what it is.

The team at the army medical research lab used the DNA sequence from the signal to develop a lysogenic virus (ie one that can infect a cell's DNA and lay dormat, replicating when that cell splits normally, without killing the cell), which can also be "activated" later (causes the cell to stop doing its normal function, and instead just create tons and tons of virus strains, and then die, freeing the virus to be absorbed by even more cells)

They tested it on macaques, rabbits, mice, and guinea pigs (ie a variety of mammals including primates) and it never did anything, they were just wrapping up the latest round of testing on rats when the rat "woke up" and bit them to start the spread. They tested the same strain on all the animals so it is quite limited it what it can infect...so far rats and humans only, doesn't mean its not possible to spread to other species just unlikely, and not at all where I think the show will focus or even dip its feet into.

So whoever mentioned earlier thinking that the virus was already spread through a lot of the population and just laying dormant, I dismissed that out of hand earlier but that's actually possible, my bad (see how that works?)
Just to clarify on how insane you actually are, for my own curiosity. You know I was not the one you were "arguing" with (spewing diatribes at) these last few pages? I only made one post about the whole food thing in this thread. Your diatribes are so off-putting that I read the first few lines of each, at most, before moving on. Hence why I said the food debate was tiresome.

You may make good points, somewhere in the walls of text you post, but I stop reading once you become hostile and actively work against yourself by being such a cunt.
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
5,092
7,110
I've already forgiven you no need for further apologies.

And no, I have like, face blindness when it comes to posters. It requires a lot for me to remember a specific poster and their antics and actually have any feelings towards them at all. Otherwise everyone is a blank page, every post is judged solely on its merits and stupidity. I harbor no ill will or prejudge any post based on who posted it.

The handful of posters who's consistent idiocy has made me remember there names just so happen to be the same people who make the ass hat list every single year so clearly its not just me. Otherwise:

1764602118487.jpeg
 

Pasteton

Vyemm Raider
3,080
2,258
The Gilligan move here would be to drop hints but never fully explain the source and reason for the hive mind , and just focus on Kim wexlers character arc, and how she changes as a person by the end. Someone else said it, breaking bad was essentially a character study of Walter white and some of the supporting cast. The issue here is I’m not yet convinced wexler has the screen presence to carry this, it’s really just her for the whole show and that’s a huge burden. I wouldn’t mind more screen time for the other immunes, at least the Peruvian guy.

But for now the world building is intriguing; but you can only squeeze maybe half a seasons worth of episodes out of that before you need more though.