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Rajaah

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yeah, this probably falls under the "scope is growing too much".

I'd almost say he should skip Divinity:OS 1/2 for now as well. wait for the ultima retrospective for those.

we can say that for wasteland/fallout too. not ultima, but still different genre.

Yeah, we have to watch out with the scope. I would like to actually have sex again.

Definitely want DOS on the original list though, it being as acclaimed as it is partly drove the creation of this CRPG Crusade. And Fallout I'm too stoked for to drop (may drop Wastelands though).

Thanks to this stuff, I got like 2 hours of sleep and I'm so trashed today.

Just for...later reference, what's the best way to play the Ultima and Wizardry serieses at this point?
 

Tuco

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-If I could do it over again, I think I would have played Fighter for the Baldur games instead. I didn't really get much out of Paladin. Having some extra heals was cool, but later on they absolutely dump healing potions on you. Ranger wouldn't have been much better either, Minsc's spells were never particularly useful. Maybe I missed all the good ones. For the most part both guys were just melee/tanks, and it would have been great if my MC could have specialized beyond two points in any given weapon. So yeah, if I could go back in time, would have gone Fighter, hands-down. I'll go Fighter for Icewind Dale, since I have to play a high-wis guy for Planescape.
Baldur's Gate casters are kinda high-effort, high-reward. If your party is in a state where it can just enter a room, auto-attack clear it, quaff a couple healing potions, loot up and move on, that's the optimal path to take most of the time. Anytime you're pausing to cast spells, you're not doing DPS and are slowing yourself down. Of course, if you've got a caster-heavy group you'll need to use their spells to overcome real challenges. I don't know if real challenges exist in BG on an unmodded normal mode for the kind of autists who might set up an autohotkey script to grind lightning mephits in the Irenicus dungeon.

Paladins are strong in BG2 because they get higher levels and better abilities but also because they get the biggest dick weapon in the game, Carsomyr On an umodded BG a paladin (especially an inquisitor kit with Truesight rolling) can start swinging that thing and destroy mages and their pathetic bullshit defenses. On a modded BG2 with harder difficulties, dispell magic is only one piece of a larger puzzle.
 

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Playing Shapeshifter Druid is a solid choice in BG2 as well because they can get stats from holding items in addition to their Dire Werewolf form. So you get the whole nine. A powerful and durable melee form and all of the big dick priest spells.
 

Rajaah

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Baldur's Gate casters are kinda high-effort, high-reward. If your party is in a state where it can just enter a room, auto-attack clear it, quaff a couple healing potions, loot up and move on, that's the optimal path to take most of the time. Anytime you're pausing to cast spells, you're not doing DPS and are slowing yourself down. Of course, if you've got a caster-heavy group you'll need to use their spells to overcome real challenges. I don't know if real challenges exist in BG on an unmodded normal mode for the kind of autists who might set up an autohotkey script to grind lightning mephits in the Irenicus dungeon.

Paladins are strong in BG2 because they get higher levels and better abilities but also because they get the biggest dick weapon in the game, Carsomyr On an umodded BG a paladin (especially an inquisitor kit with Truesight rolling) can start swinging that thing and destroy mages and their pathetic bullshit defenses. On a modded BG2 with harder difficulties, dispell magic is only one piece of a larger puzzle.

Alright, I'm going after this post-haste. For whatever reason when I started BG2 I didn't get any of my old stuff, no Katana +2, so I'm using the noob weapons from the table (I'm guessing the table was supposed to have my old stuff).

I think this is because I imported the save from the very end of SoD, and the MC was in prison and stripped of gear by then. I guess I should have imported a save from before the end of SoD, like right before I went into Avernus, though I'd lose some EXP doing that I guess I'd get my gear back. Which means starting BG2 over but whatever, I only have like 30 min on it. Kind of weird how they set this up.


Chapter 2 I'll go after this. It's good to have a mission to carry out!

Then in Chapter 9 I'll make sure to get this:


So I can upgrade the sword once I get to ToB.

I hope it's a flaming sword. Still grumpy that Caelar Argent and her flaming sword isn't a party member I can bring into BG2.
 

Burns

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Alright, I'm going after this post-haste. For whatever reason when I started BG2 I didn't get any of my old stuff, no Katana +2, so I'm using the noob weapons from the table (I'm guessing the table was supposed to have my old stuff).

I think this is because I imported the save from the very end of SoD, and the MC was in prison and stripped of gear by then. I guess I should have imported a save from before the end of SoD, like right before I went into Avernus, though I'd lose some EXP doing that I guess I'd get my gear back. Which means starting BG2 over but whatever, I only have like 30 min on it. Kind of weird how they set this up.


Chapter 2 I'll go after this. It's good to have a mission to carry out!

Then in Chapter 9 I'll make sure to get this:


So I can upgrade the sword once I get to ToB.

I hope it's a flaming sword. Still grumpy that Caelar Argent and her flaming sword isn't a party member I can bring into BG2.
Irenicus strips you down, sells some of your shit, and scatters other things to the 4 winds.

AKA: Not everything gets ported over and most/all of the Beamdog items are put in various locations around the world. What you get also dependent on what all you had in your inventory, so it makes choices of what shows up from the import.

2023-03-22 10.40.37 www.reddit.com 2d08f26bb827.png


Here is the list (dont read the ToB stuff and should be spoiler lite):
 
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Rajaah

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In icewind dale you have to make your entire party yourself (up to 6 as in BG) at the start.

Yeah, I can't wait. Already reading the guide and getting ideas for party layout.

After BG2/ToB, I might go right to ID and save Planescape a bit. Next is either ID, FO, or PT.

I gotta stop looking ahead to the next thing like some kind of Consumer though. Just started BG2 and it's pretty rad. This feels like it's gonna take a while.
 

reavor

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Alright, I'm going after this post-haste. For whatever reason when I started BG2 I didn't get any of my old stuff, no Katana +2, so I'm using the noob weapons from the table (I'm guessing the table was supposed to have my old stuff).

I think this is because I imported the save from the very end of SoD, and the MC was in prison and stripped of gear by then. I guess I should have imported a save from before the end of SoD, like right before I went into Avernus, though I'd lose some EXP doing that I guess I'd get my gear back. Which means starting BG2 over but whatever, I only have like 30 min on it. Kind of weird how they set this up.


Chapter 2 I'll go after this. It's good to have a mission to carry out!

Then in Chapter 9 I'll make sure to get this:


So I can upgrade the sword once I get to ToB.

I hope it's a flaming sword. Still grumpy that Caelar Argent and her flaming sword isn't a party member I can bring into BG2.

No, youre not supposed to get any of your items etc at the start of Bg2, only your stats and the golden pantaloons if you had them at the end of bg1. They even say something like that at the start "they grabbed all our stuff, and probably sold our magical shit"
 

Caliane

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Just for...later reference, what's the best way to play the Ultima and Wizardry serieses at this point?
man, hard to say.
ultima and wizardry are very different games, and genres. lets talk ultima first.
first, honestly not even sure.. checked a bit, and found this thread.

I'm not sure I would recommend ultima 1-3 on pc. they are SO old at this point. maybe the nes versions of 3 and 4..
These have the very old school design, like wizardy, where you had to take physical notes, and TYPE in chat to have discussions with npcs. nes ones greatly simplify it.
I'd almost just say NES ultimas. experience the basics, and the origins of the Avatar, and that philosophy.

6 and 7 are where shit gets real, and is the prime Ultima experience probably.
7 part 1 and 2 especially.

8. pagan is not well liked. it was fairly unfinished on release. very small world. almost like a proto majoras mask.

9... oh boy.. skip..

ultima online. ultimas design philosophy moved into a mmo. This should actually be played in any ultima playthrough.

Ultima Underworld 1 and 2. Seminal. Controls are rough by modern standards. but, these games changed video games. and should be played by everyone.
These are a genre in themselves though. not like the others. The origin of "immersive sim". aka, system shock, bioshock, deus ex, etc.

The Ultimas are a design philosophy that spawned Divinity:OS, not baldurs gate. (they also have more in common with the elder scrolls.)

For wizardry, Gog has them. not sure which are suggested for modern play. 7 and 8 maybe.
with this we also need to talk about Might and magic, and bards tale though as well. sseth also has a vid on might and magic 8iirc.

Ultima and Wizardry/M&M combined leads us to The Elder scrolls.
M&M also spins off into Heroes of might and magic, which is tactical and 4x origins.
While Wizardry is the origins of Jrpgs. Wizardy was big in japan amusingly. "The popularity of Wizardry in Japan inspired several original sequels, spinoffs, and ports, with the series long outliving the American original.[9] As of 2022, thirty-nine different spin-offs were released in Japan, with five of them being localized and released worldwide. The latest is also the last original game produced in the series, released in Japan in 2014, and officially released in English worldwide in 2017."


checking GOG for some of this. most of these games are on sale atm.
disco elysuim is 75% off. 10$. cyberpunk 2077 50% off. might and magics are all 75%. NWN 1 and 2 are 75% off.
 
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Tuco

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For Ultima, I'd start with Ultima 7 part 1. To this day Ultima 7 has the best background NPC lifecycles of any game and I don't know why. A farmer will:
  1. Wake up
  2. Till / scythe their fields in random locations
  3. Pause for lunch
  4. Work some more
  5. Go eat dinner at a pub
  6. Maybe go to "church" or do some other social event
  7. Go to sleep
It's so cool to watch. I never played Ultima Online so they might have exceeded it.

Elder Scrolls games kinda approximate this, but usually it's not as convincing, probably because of the more detailed world. Same with Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
 
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Tuco

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Alright, I'm going after this post-haste. For whatever reason when I started BG2 I didn't get any of my old stuff, no Katana +2, so I'm using the noob weapons from the table (I'm guessing the table was supposed to have my old stuff).

I think this is because I imported the save from the very end of SoD, and the MC was in prison and stripped of gear by then. I guess I should have imported a save from before the end of SoD, like right before I went into Avernus, though I'd lose some EXP doing that I guess I'd get my gear back. Which means starting BG2 over but whatever, I only have like 30 min on it. Kind of weird how they set this up.


Chapter 2 I'll go after this. It's good to have a mission to carry out!

Then in Chapter 9 I'll make sure to get this:


So I can upgrade the sword once I get to ToB.

I hope it's a flaming sword. Still grumpy that Caelar Argent and her flaming sword isn't a party member I can bring into BG2.
Rushing and skipping through content and then exploit-killing a boss you have no business fighting to get some OP weapon that obliterates the first half of a game is a favorite thing to do in games. The dungeon leading to Firkragg and the dragon himself is no joke. Good luck. I'd recommend setting the game to hard difficulty or core or whatever and then sticking to it. If you get stuck on some bullshit mob you can't even damage, it'll make swinging that thing all the sweeter.
 
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Burns

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man, hard to say.
ultima and wizardry are very different games, and genres. lets talk ultima first.
first, honestly not even sure.. checked a bit, and found this thread.

I'm not sure I would recommend ultima 1-3 on pc. they are SO old at this point. maybe the nes versions of 3 and 4..
These have the very old school design, like wizardy, where you had to take physical notes, and TYPE in chat to have discussions with npcs. nes ones greatly simplify it.
I'd almost just say NES ultimas. experience the basics, and the origins of the Avatar, and that philosophy.

6 and 7 are where shit gets real, and is the prime Ultima experience probably.
7 part 1 and 2 especially.

8. pagan is not well liked. it was fairly unfinished on release. very small world. almost like a proto majoras mask.

9... oh boy.. skip..

ultima online. ultimas design philosophy moved into a mmo. This should actually be played in any ultima playthrough.

Ultima Underworld 1 and 2. Seminal. Controls are rough by modern standards. but, these games changed video games. and should be played by everyone.
These are a genre in themselves though. not like the others. The origin of "immersive sim". aka, system shock, bioshock, deus ex, etc.

The Ultimas are a design philosophy that spawned Divinity:OS, not baldurs gate. (they also have more in common with the elder scrolls.)

For wizardry, Gog has them. not sure which are suggested for modern play. 7 and 8 maybe.
with this we also need to talk about Might and magic, and bards tale though as well. sseth also has a vid on might and magic 8iirc.

Ultima and Wizardry/M&M combined leads us to The Elder scrolls.
M&M also spins off into Heroes of might and magic, which is tactical and 4x origins.
While Wizardry is the origins of Jrpgs. Wizardy was big in japan amusingly. "The popularity of Wizardry in Japan inspired several original sequels, spinoffs, and ports, with the series long outliving the American original.[9] As of 2022, thirty-nine different spin-offs were released in Japan, with five of them being localized and released worldwide. The latest is also the last original game produced in the series, released in Japan in 2014, and officially released in English worldwide in 2017."


checking GOG for some of this. most of these games are on sale atm.
disco elysuim is 75% off. 10$. cyberpunk 2077 50% off. might and magics are all 75%. NWN 1 and 2 are 75% off.
Most of this sounds about right.

Blobbers (your limited to first person mode, so your party is like a blob just behind the camera) are mostly independent games set in a certain gaming world. You don't need to play them in order, unless it's to see the progression of the technology.

I would probably recommend just jumping around. World of Xeen and Wizardry 8 are the highest rated, I think. Then there are few of the Might and Magics that are better than the others. I played all the M&M games, but it's been so long I don't remember which is better. Ubisoft, in 2013, even allowed some mad men to make a "modern" blobber that was pretty good too (Might and Magic 10).

The Ultima games do build on themselves, but I had no issues starting with Ultima 7 as a kid. A lot of people really like Ultima 6 too, but I could never get into it. There is also a U6 fan made mod for A Dungeon Siege game that is supposed to be as good, but I still couldn't make it very far.

So, I only know and love Ultima 7: The Black Gate and Ultima 7: Serpent Isle. I also liked Ultima 8, but, as stated above, it didn't get very good reviews. Ultima Online was neat, for what it was, but dunno about playing it now days (plus the time commitment of an MMO).
 

Caliane

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For Ultima, I'd start with Ultima 7 part 1. To this day Ultima 7 has the best background NPC lifecycles of any game and I don't know why. A farmer will:
  1. Wake up
  2. Till / scythe their fields in random locations
  3. Pause for lunch
  4. Work some more
  5. Go eat dinner at a pub
  6. Maybe go to "church" or do some other social event
  7. Go to sleep
It's so cool to watch. I never played Ultima Online so they might have exceeded it.

Elder Scrolls games kinda approximate this, but usually it's not as convincing, probably because of the more detailed world. Same with Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
nah for ultima online. the players were intended to take on that role. the npcs are far more static.

But much of the world as Sim is still there. or was, and then patched out. Lord british famously being murdered. or, how the original design had an ecology sim. m+f rabbits, would spawn baby rabbits. Giant spiders/wolves would kill rabbits/deer, etc. but as soon as they unleased players upon the world, they killed everything. making every species go extinct. so they had to swap to a now normal spawn system.

yes, Elders scrolls is 100% also a successor to Ultima. It actually took me a very long time to realize it. Pretty recently, I think it was Mortismal maybe, doing a vid on skyrim and mentioned skyrim as a simulation. and it clicked. yeah. npcs with daily cycles. most/all items in the world existing in the world and being interactable. thats a big thing people overlook. like in these iso rpgs. backgrounds are backgrounds. tables are backgrounds. in ultima/tes, you can sit at them, break them, pick up the plates, etc. stealing from npcs when they arent looking.
 

Rajaah

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man, hard to say.
ultima and wizardry are very different games, and genres. lets talk ultima first.
first, honestly not even sure.. checked a bit, and found this thread.

I'm not sure I would recommend ultima 1-3 on pc. they are SO old at this point. maybe the nes versions of 3 and 4..
These have the very old school design, like wizardy, where you had to take physical notes, and TYPE in chat to have discussions with npcs. nes ones greatly simplify it.
I'd almost just say NES ultimas. experience the basics, and the origins of the Avatar, and that philosophy.

6 and 7 are where shit gets real, and is the prime Ultima experience probably.
7 part 1 and 2 especially.

8. pagan is not well liked. it was fairly unfinished on release. very small world. almost like a proto majoras mask.

9... oh boy.. skip..

ultima online. ultimas design philosophy moved into a mmo. This should actually be played in any ultima playthrough.

Ultima Underworld 1 and 2. Seminal. Controls are rough by modern standards. but, these games changed video games. and should be played by everyone.
These are a genre in themselves though. not like the others. The origin of "immersive sim". aka, system shock, bioshock, deus ex, etc.

The Ultimas are a design philosophy that spawned Divinity:OS, not baldurs gate. (they also have more in common with the elder scrolls.)

For wizardry, Gog has them. not sure which are suggested for modern play. 7 and 8 maybe.
with this we also need to talk about Might and magic, and bards tale though as well. sseth also has a vid on might and magic 8iirc.

Ultima and Wizardry/M&M combined leads us to The Elder scrolls.
M&M also spins off into Heroes of might and magic, which is tactical and 4x origins.
While Wizardry is the origins of Jrpgs. Wizardy was big in japan amusingly. "The popularity of Wizardry in Japan inspired several original sequels, spinoffs, and ports, with the series long outliving the American original.[9] As of 2022, thirty-nine different spin-offs were released in Japan, with five of them being localized and released worldwide. The latest is also the last original game produced in the series, released in Japan in 2014, and officially released in English worldwide in 2017."


checking GOG for some of this. most of these games are on sale atm.
disco elysuim is 75% off. 10$. cyberpunk 2077 50% off. might and magics are all 75%. NWN 1 and 2 are 75% off.

I don't see NWN2 on sale. It's listed at $20. Bunch of others are on sale though.

NWN2 and ID2 are two I don't actually have yet. Also the Wastelands. That's part of why they're all in P3. I'll get em when I'm sure I'll play them. Unless NWN2 got a 75% off sale and was $5, then I'd just get it right now and probably bump it up to where NWN1 is on the list.

I've got no issues playing some of these on console either. I have Divinity 1+2, Pillars 1+2, NWN1, and ID + PT EE all on PS4.
 

Caliane

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I don't see NWN2 on sale. It's listed at $20. Bunch of others are on sale though.

NWN2 and ID2 are two I don't actually have yet. Also the Wastelands. That's part of why they're all in P3. I'll get em when I'm sure I'll play them. Unless NWN2 got a 75% off sale and was $5, then I'd just get it right now and probably bump it up to where NWN1 is on the list.

I've got no issues playing some of these on console either. I have Divinity 1+2, Pillars 1+2, NWN1, and ID + PT EE all on PS4.
ah. yeah. looks like it was just NWN 1 I was mistaken.

found this neat retrospective on wizardry. interesting, when talking about wizardry 1, you can directly see its influence on the creation of final fantasy and dragonquest. classes/menus/actions. dragonquest even bringing up the first person battles from wizardy/blobbers.
phantasy star, shining in the darkness, darksouls, persona, all the japanese blobbers, the very concept of a dungeon crawl, etc. this vid really hits on how nearly all jprgs of all genres, came from wizardry.

this vid is pretty great. really hits on alot of the things I was saying, even about ultima. a great whos who on origins of rpgs, and even fps. tracing back to rogue, ultima, and Wizardry.

He also recommends the japanese ports to PS3, etc for entry into the games.
 
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Rajaah

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For Ultima, I'd start with Ultima 7 part 1. To this day Ultima 7 has the best background NPC lifecycles of any game and I don't know why. A farmer will:
  1. Wake up
  2. Till / scythe their fields in random locations
  3. Pause for lunch
  4. Work some more
  5. Go eat dinner at a pub
  6. Maybe go to "church" or do some other social event
  7. Go to sleep
It's so cool to watch. I never played Ultima Online so they might have exceeded it.

Elder Scrolls games kinda approximate this, but usually it's not as convincing, probably because of the more detailed world. Same with Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

I think UO had the same kind of NPC life cycles. I read about it in Next Generation magazine in 1997 or so and it seemed like a legit real game world. Then in 99 EQ kind of supplanted it in every way so I never actually got into UO. Was so close a few times.

One thing UO has over EQ though are those NPC life cycles. EQ tried to do this mildly with NPCs in Qeynos/Freeport going on errands every day and stuff like that, but it never had anything on the scope of UO's zillion NPCs with lives. Edit: I guess most of this got patched out, nevermind. When I read about it in the magazines, it was either pre-release or still fairly new.

Another Ultima I nearly got into as a kid was Runes of Virtue on the Game Boy. Had some fun concepts and was just very compelling for a Game Boy game. Not sure if it was based on a mainline Ultima or what. I just remember it had four main characters, Dupre and Iolo were two of them. Graphics were very dated even for its time (I think it was out in like 1990).

Then soon after was Runes of Virtue 2 which looked MUCH nicer and was even more compelling, like a Link's Awakening for grown-ups that had levels and stats and felt like a real world. Got super close to getting that one as a kid and still had it on my radar as an adult with the advent of emulation.

Don't discount the worthiness of Game Boy games. Some classic RPGs on there and the B&W screen actually has a real charm to it on modern emulators. I prefer the look of GB games to NES games. Tend to be a lot cleaner due to fewer pixels. Been a while since I played a GB game though. Think the last time was the FF Legend trilogy like 15 years ago. It just got re-released on Switch as Collection of SaGa.
 
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Tuco

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nah for ultima online. the players were intended to take on that role. the npcs are far more static.

But much of the world as Sim is still there. or was, and then patched out. Lord british famously being murdered. or, how the original design had an ecology sim. m+f rabbits, would spawn baby rabbits. Giant spiders/wolves would kill rabbits/deer, etc. but as soon as they unleased players upon the world, they killed everything. making every species go extinct. so they had to swap to a now normal spawn system.

yes, Elders scrolls is 100% also a successor to Ultima. It actually took me a very long time to realize it. Pretty recently, I think it was Mortismal maybe, doing a vid on skyrim and mentioned skyrim as a simulation. and it clicked. yeah. npcs with daily cycles. most/all items in the world existing in the world and being interactable. thats a big thing people overlook. like in these iso rpgs. backgrounds are backgrounds. tables are backgrounds. in ultima/tes, you can sit at them, break them, pick up the plates, etc. stealing from npcs when they arent looking.
I hope ES6 goes hard on the procedural simulation stuff. Feels like Skyrim moved more toward a theme-park design with a massive number of hand-crafted encounters built on top of a moderate procedural platform. I imagine ES6 will be the same but I'd love to see them really embrace some dynamic content outside the main quest. Something that provides meaningful prompts to a system like ChatGPT based on player actions (and inaction) and then converts that into meaningful output to change the world would be $$$.

For fun I tried that out in ChatGPT / Midjourney.

Prompt: You are a game master for a dungeons and dragons game. I will tell you the quest setup and player actions and you generate the next step in the quest the players must do.

ChatGPT: Sure, I'd be happy to help! Please provide me with the quest setup and the actions the players have taken so far, and I'll generate the next step in the quest for you.

Prompt (mostly copy-paste from Jyggalag ): The players invade the realm of Jyggalag, god of order. Jyggalag represents logical order and deduction and has taken account of every detail of the world and of every action, long before they actually happen. As a result, Jyggalag believes in certainty and determinism, and that the concept of individuality is an illusion. The players are given a puzzle to solve by Jyggalag to unlock a chest. Instead of solving the puzzle they use an explosive artifact to break open the chest. Jyggalag is upset by this and creates a new challenge for the players. Please describe the challenge he creates for the players.


ChatGPT: After witnessing the players' disregard for the puzzle he set before them, Jyggalag decides to test the adventurers further with a new challenge. He manifests a massive maze within his realm, filled with numerous traps and obstacles that will test their wit and agility.
The maze is a reflection of Jyggalag's own ordered mind, with the walls and paths arranged in a complex and precise pattern. The players will need to navigate the maze while avoiding the traps and solving puzzles that Jyggalag has set throughout its corridors.
As they progress through the maze, the players will encounter several creatures that Jyggalag has summoned to test their strength and cunning. These creatures will be manifestations of different aspects of Jyggalag's ordered mind, ranging from mechanical constructs to intelligent entities that embody his relentless pursuit of logic and reason.
The ultimate goal of the maze is to reach the center, where the players will find Jyggalag waiting for them. He will present them with a final challenge, a task that requires them to think outside of the rigid logic and order that he embodies. If they succeed, he will reward them with a powerful artifact or knowledge that will aid them in their future adventures.


Prompt: Thank you. Please describe the mechanical constructs in detail. What do they look like? How many arms do they have? How large are they? What special abilities do they have? Please also describe the reward that Jyggalag provides and how it relates to his personality.


ChatGPT: The mechanical constructs that the players encounter in Jyggalag's maze are designed to embody his unyielding logic and unwavering pursuit of order. They are humanoid in shape, with angular and precise features that give them a robotic appearance.
Their bodies are made of a polished metal alloy, with overlapping plates that provide them with excellent protection. The constructs stand roughly eight feet tall and have four arms, two of which end in razor-sharp blades that can cut through most materials with ease.
In addition to their impressive physical abilities, the constructs possess a number of special abilities that are designed to thwart the players' progress. They are equipped with advanced sensors that allow them to detect the players' movements and anticipate their actions, making it difficult to catch them off guard. They also have the ability to create small force fields that can deflect incoming attacks and protect them from harm.
As for the reward that Jyggalag provides, it is something that reflects his personality and his belief in the power of order. It could be a magical item that allows the players to exert greater control over their surroundings, or a tome of ancient knowledge that reveals the inner workings of the universe. Whatever the reward may be, it will be something that embodies Jyggalag's belief in the power of certainty and determinism, and will help the players to achieve greater understanding and control over their world.

Prompt: Thank you. Please write the dialog that Jyggalag gives to the player when he sends them to his maze.

ChatGPT: Jyggalag's voice booms in the players' minds as they approach the entrance to his maze. "You have proven yourselves to be reckless and impulsive, lacking in the discipline and order that I embody. You have shattered the puzzle I set before you, and in doing so, you have shown me that you are not yet ready to face the challenges that lie ahead."
"But do not despair," Jyggalag continues. "For I am a god of order, and I believe in the power of discipline and determination. You will face a new challenge now, one that will test your wit and agility as well as your strength. You will navigate a maze that embodies the very essence of my ordered mind, and you will encounter challenges and obstacles that will test your mettle."
"But know this," Jyggalag warns. "I will not tolerate disobedience or disrespect. If you break my laws or fail to meet my expectations, there will be consequences. But if you show discipline and order, if you face the challenges I set before you with determination and logic, then you may earn the reward that awaits you at the end of this maze. Now, enter and face your destiny."

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Tuco

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The above post was produced with 1lbs of carbon emissions. It kinda missed the point of Jyggalag, which isn't that he wants to reduce everything to simple order, but instead that he believes all things are contained by order, no matter how apparently chaotic they are. I probably derailed it with a prompt saying that Jyggalag was pissed they blew up his chest, where as Jyggalag should have been OK with it since, after all, they are just following the path set out for them and aren't making free choices.
 
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Caliane

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I hope ES6 goes hard on the procedural simulation stuff. Feels like Skyrim moved more toward a theme-park design with a massive number of hand-crafted encounters built on top of a moderate procedural platform. I imagine ES6 will be the same but I'd love to see them really embrace some dynamic content outside the main quest. Something that provides meaningful prompts to a system like ChatGPT based on player actions (and inaction) and then converts that into meaningful output to change the world would be $$$.
you saw the bannerlord chat gpt mod right? did you post that here?

I think its doubtful on ES6 or starfield really embracing the sim sadly. that really is the uniqueness of ES versus other crpgs, eldren ring, etc. but I don't think the average gamer understands that. you can look at fallout reddits, and such and theres always that debate over the sim/townbuilding versus main storyline focus. seems a large chunk of the fanbase want that structured storyline. bigger and more intensive sims are more and more work with bigger and bigger worlds. much of fo4's sim/townbuilding almost seems like an accident. 76's going in totally the wrong direction confirms to me they don't know what they had, or why.
 

Rajaah

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I hope ES6 goes hard on the procedural simulation stuff. Feels like Skyrim moved more toward a theme-park design with a massive number of hand-crafted encounters built on top of a moderate procedural platform. I imagine ES6 will be the same but I'd love to see them really embrace some dynamic content outside the main quest. Something that provides meaningful prompts to a system like ChatGPT based on player actions (and inaction) and then converts that into meaningful output to change the world would be $$$.

For fun I tried that out in ChatGPT / Midjourney.

Prompt: You are a game master for a dungeons and dragons game. I will tell you the quest setup and player actions and you generate the next step in the quest the players must do.

ChatGPT: Sure, I'd be happy to help! Please provide me with the quest setup and the actions the players have taken so far, and I'll generate the next step in the quest for you.

Prompt (mostly copy-paste from Jyggalag ): The players invade the realm of Jyggalag, god of order. Jyggalag represents logical order and deduction and has taken account of every detail of the world and of every action, long before they actually happen. As a result, Jyggalag believes in certainty and determinism, and that the concept of individuality is an illusion. The players are given a puzzle to solve by Jyggalag to unlock a chest. Instead of solving the puzzle they use an explosive artifact to break open the chest. Jyggalag is upset by this and creates a new challenge for the players. Please describe the challenge he creates for the players.


ChatGPT: After witnessing the players' disregard for the puzzle he set before them, Jyggalag decides to test the adventurers further with a new challenge. He manifests a massive maze within his realm, filled with numerous traps and obstacles that will test their wit and agility.
The maze is a reflection of Jyggalag's own ordered mind, with the walls and paths arranged in a complex and precise pattern. The players will need to navigate the maze while avoiding the traps and solving puzzles that Jyggalag has set throughout its corridors.
As they progress through the maze, the players will encounter several creatures that Jyggalag has summoned to test their strength and cunning. These creatures will be manifestations of different aspects of Jyggalag's ordered mind, ranging from mechanical constructs to intelligent entities that embody his relentless pursuit of logic and reason.
The ultimate goal of the maze is to reach the center, where the players will find Jyggalag waiting for them. He will present them with a final challenge, a task that requires them to think outside of the rigid logic and order that he embodies. If they succeed, he will reward them with a powerful artifact or knowledge that will aid them in their future adventures.


Prompt: Thank you. Please describe the mechanical constructs in detail. What do they look like? How many arms do they have? How large are they? What special abilities do they have? Please also describe the reward that Jyggalag provides and how it relates to his personality.


ChatGPT: The mechanical constructs that the players encounter in Jyggalag's maze are designed to embody his unyielding logic and unwavering pursuit of order. They are humanoid in shape, with angular and precise features that give them a robotic appearance.
Their bodies are made of a polished metal alloy, with overlapping plates that provide them with excellent protection. The constructs stand roughly eight feet tall and have four arms, two of which end in razor-sharp blades that can cut through most materials with ease.
In addition to their impressive physical abilities, the constructs possess a number of special abilities that are designed to thwart the players' progress. They are equipped with advanced sensors that allow them to detect the players' movements and anticipate their actions, making it difficult to catch them off guard. They also have the ability to create small force fields that can deflect incoming attacks and protect them from harm.
As for the reward that Jyggalag provides, it is something that reflects his personality and his belief in the power of order. It could be a magical item that allows the players to exert greater control over their surroundings, or a tome of ancient knowledge that reveals the inner workings of the universe. Whatever the reward may be, it will be something that embodies Jyggalag's belief in the power of certainty and determinism, and will help the players to achieve greater understanding and control over their world.

Prompt: Thank you. Please write the dialog that Jyggalag gives to the player when he sends them to his maze.

ChatGPT: Jyggalag's voice booms in the players' minds as they approach the entrance to his maze. "You have proven yourselves to be reckless and impulsive, lacking in the discipline and order that I embody. You have shattered the puzzle I set before you, and in doing so, you have shown me that you are not yet ready to face the challenges that lie ahead."
"But do not despair," Jyggalag continues. "For I am a god of order, and I believe in the power of discipline and determination. You will face a new challenge now, one that will test your wit and agility as well as your strength. You will navigate a maze that embodies the very essence of my ordered mind, and you will encounter challenges and obstacles that will test your mettle."
"But know this," Jyggalag warns. "I will not tolerate disobedience or disrespect. If you break my laws or fail to meet my expectations, there will be consequences. But if you show discipline and order, if you face the challenges I set before you with determination and logic, then you may earn the reward that awaits you at the end of this maze. Now, enter and face your destiny."

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An ES game that returns to procedural generation and uses AI to adjust the world on the fly would be incredible, and the kind of leap forward for games that Daggerfall was in 1995.

For ES6 I think it's setting the hopes high. We'll be lucky if ES6 is even good. I think it will be. Expecting it to take the best of Skyrim and combine that with things that have advanced the genre since then like Witcher 3.

Since it'll take them like 12 years to do the next ES after this, we can look forward to full AI integration and incredible procedural dungeons in 2037's ES7: Elsweyr. It'll be a pretty sweet break from standing in the commie utopia bread lines.