SOE Becomes Daybreak / Russian shutdown

Warmuth

Molten Core Raider
869
493
I remember we used a mercenary instead of your paladin to tank for like the first 3k aa, haha. That makes it pretty damn hard to get rolling as a casual f2p player when peoples pocket-bots are more effective than the f2p players. Did they ever add item unlockers and aug options?
Merc tanks shit all over sub paying tanks for a good long while. There is some masochism involved in trying to level and gear up a tank.

Also lol at the TDS exp nerf still in effect. Even though it was just one of many reasons for the mass exodus away from the game that expansion caused it was probably the most unnecessary decision they needed to make and should have been reversed. Everyone knew the HAs were the only way anyone would seriously exp but it just seemed spiteful to say the least.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Yeah last time I played a player tank could nto touch merc tanks, especially the t3 mercs until well into the 80s and thousands of AA and augs up the ass. I guess that sort of changed when they gave everybody free AA?
 

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
6,354
5,897
Merc's have the old pet tanking code up to level 100. They get hit more often then players do but they take minimum damage from those hits 90% of the time. Players get hit less often but take a much higher number of high damage hits. The result is under geared under AAed player tanks really wont stand a chance compared to a merc tank up to level 100. After level 100 merc's code changes to be more inline with player tanks but the result is that because merc's lack ability to use activated abilities in a effective manner they become nearly worthless against named mobs past level 100.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
But isn't that quote really the point? In the last five years, the market has introduced a multitude of models to support the multitude of needs/desires of the marketplace. Some of these models have actually saved games that people on these forums seem to cherish (SWTOR, EQ, Secret World, etc). There really isn't a wrong way, regardless of what you may like. If the market doesn't accept your "model", you adjust or flounder. That's Business 101 and the only way EA was able to save SWTOR, for instance. As an old director of mine used to say, "Skate to where the puck is at."

Sure, I prefer a subscription model, but it doesn't make me any more "right" than the person who prefers B2P or F2P. It's helped to expand the reach of MMOs to people who wouldn't have considered them in the past due to a prohibitive model. That expansion results is more money and capital flooding into the industry to develop more MMOs which is a good thing. The real problem for the umpteenth time, is that there are so many games out there that are complete and total crap. Unfortunately, a lot of those, are categorized as F2P which is why there is such a negative connotation toward that specific model.
The problem is we are continuing to get crappy games due to the prolonged life of other terrible ones from milking cash shops, instead of new and fresh ideas to try and win market share or innovate when something doesn't work. Why actually push the boundaries when you can make a mediocre game and get good return on investment even if your game isn't a WOW home run?

EQ and UO moved things forward with their model. Most games over the last decade have done the reverse for consumers and gamers, by and large. Sure, nickle and diming are great for bringing in revenue and keeping a crappy MMO that should die alive, but it sure isn't good for the average gamer.

In the 90s it was a good deal, but as of now I despise subscription models. I want to purchase 'content'. Content as in new expansions or additions to a game and to be able to play it whenever I want. I don't want to have to pay 15 dollars to play a game and expansion I've already bought. The only reason most MMOs aren't free is corporate suits see the very small western market who pays a sub and gets the gleam in their eye for that pure profit revenue, instead of looking at better models for loyalty and building a community that will continue to purchase products.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
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The problem is we are continuing to get crappy games due to the prolonged life of other terrible ones from milking cash shops, instead of new and fresh ideas to try and win market share or innovate when something doesn't work. Why actually push the boundaries when you can make a mediocre game and get good return on investment even if your game isn't a WOW home run?
On the other side of that why would you not try to make the best game possible? If you set out to make a mediocre game you will definitely end up on cash shop life support making small profits, but if you push the envelope and try to make a good game you will spend about the same amount of money and if you fail at making the next big thing you can still put it on cash shop life support and make small profits.

I think the sad fact is the industry actually is trying to make good games, and the guys in charge of these major studios who actually have the money to make MMOs are just so entrenched and full of themselves that what we see actually is them trying to innovate. ESO for example, wasn't a game that tried to just be WoW, it was a game that tried to innovate lead by idiots. Same with AOC/Warhammer and even EQ2 to an extent.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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The problem with MMOs in general is that they are so fucking expensive to produce from inception to launch, so no one wants to take risks anymore. But the problem is that they are focusing in the wrong direction IMO. Instead of adding in 100s of features, writing reams of story, employing a whole staff to do quests, 100s of actors for dialogue and all that bullshit, they need to go back to simple. Design a simple class based, fun intuitive combat, and a harsh gritty world filled with dungeons treasure and peril. Make the players write their own stories instead of trying to shove one down their throats. Graphics as well, who gives a shit about graphics? Look at games like Terraria and Minecraft. People want fun not shiny and dull, graphics is a distant third.

Revolution and evolution in this industry has always been about the small team with passion and vision, not huge corporations trying to monetize the shit out of everything.
 

Xaxius

Lord Nagafen Raider
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I feel like you're unfairly mixing together payment model with developer execution. I also feel like that your bias, at best, clouds your conclusions. Let me explain...

The problem is we are continuing to get crappy games due to the prolonged life of other terrible ones from milking cash shops, instead of new and fresh ideas to try and win market share or innovate when something doesn't work. Why actually push the boundaries when you can make a mediocre game and get good return on investment even if your game isn't a WOW home run?
I disagree with those assumptions. I would argue that EQNext, while not a game I was looking forward to, included a host of "new and fresh ideas to try and win market share" which is/was entirely being funded by a collection of "crappy games." Now, whether or not SoE/Daybreak can turn that into a fun and rewarding experience is another thing all together but the whole voxel, destructive enviroments, community building, Landmark, Story Bricks thing was sure as hell something I've never seen in a MMO before. This is where developer execution would probably impact your perception of a cash shop's implementation. EQNext performs well or ends up being a game you like... F2P huge success, amazing idea! EQNext performs poorly... F2P continues to prolong crappy games. See what I did there?

EQ and UO moved things forward with their model. Most games over the last decade have done the reverse for consumers and gamers, by and large. Sure, nickle and diming are great for bringing in revenue and keeping a crappy MMO that should die alive, but it sure isn't good for the average gamer.
I would argue that the exact opposite has happened and, using some current examples, is something you should actually be cheering for. GW2, Destiny, and, very soon, ESO are games that you'd seem to actually desire from a payment perspective. You want to pay for DLC type "content" and each of those games actually support that type of model. I would say that their ability to offer that type of payment model is a direct evolution of early F2P/B2P models pioneered in GW, LOTRO and EQ2. Again, those might not be games that you like, so your perception of that conclusion will probably be different.

On a side note, hasn't the stagnation of innovation really been related to developers being lazy trying to emulate World of Warcraft's success and not cash-shops?

In the 90s it was a good deal, but as of now I despise subscription models. I want to purchase 'content'. Content as in new expansions or additions to a game and to be able to play it whenever I want. I don't want to have to pay 15 dollars to play a game and expansion I've already bought. The only reason most MMOs aren't free is corporate suits see the very small western market who pays a sub and gets the gleam in their eye for that pure profit revenue, instead of looking at better models for loyalty and building a community that will continue to purchase products.
This whole paragraph just doesn't make any real sense to me, other than you like DLC. Obviously, the reason MMOs aren't free is because they aren't charities and people like money. If it's a surprise to you that they are profit driven, then I've got some nice ocean front property to sell you in Arizona. In the end, I'll go back to my original post... "The real problem for the umpteenth time, is that there are so many games out there that are complete and total crap." The evolution of the payment model has increased accessibility and broadened the market, but it hasn't caused the rampant poor game design seen in the MMO space which you seem to associate to it.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
Since no one reads the Everquest thread and they streamed from daybreak games, I'll put this here. Just watched the 30 in stream and 585 people showed up to watch it mid day. New progression server is confirmed in the works, they are gathering ideas for it now.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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893
I'm in the EQ2 chat right now and i'm surprised how many people have shown up. I'll post a report if anything interesting happens.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
Crystilla posted this summary for those that missed it.

The twitch just ended and was only 30 min but they stayed 36 min to talk.

They confirmed they're looking at a new progression server (and it's not a case of if they want to do one but what type of one they want to do). Mentioned they may send out a poll on this.

They know they're light on the top end (raids) and more will be coming.

They talked about the exp nerfs and know it's been a huge sticking point. They're in discussions on what is the right thing to do (while keeping their main goals in line - like amount of time to level from 100-105, etc.).

They're aware it's not quite working right on HA's to have all the experience at the end (specifically for mercenary experience and bonus exp like lesson, potions, etc.)

Question was asked about looking at restrictions to free to play. Nothing's been looked at yet; they're focused on other things.

UI comments came up and it's something they would like to look at. As Kevin (art guy on the stream) said, they've had 16 years of using it so now should know what they want to do.

They will still come out with expansions. They did state that they're willing to push something back if they can make it better by waiting a bit.

Other things mentioned as well - but no timelines given for all of the above.

In terms of upcoming content, they confirmed they're no longer using the 'weekly' content rule requirement so things like all of the IRA/prowess, D^3, G^3, hardcore heritage, anniversary quests will come out on a normal schedule rather than get spread out week to week.

Some long asked for fixes related to twincast will be coming out.
 
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EQ3 should have been:

- EQ1 but with better graphics, moddable UI, WoW Armory / Magelo integrated into client, etc.
- competitive PVE by integratingWoW Progressinto the client and web site.
- raid progression stats get updated until new raid content gets released, old stats get saved for posterity. (basically a ladder reset)
- besides just raid progress put other cool stats like fastest zone clear, fastest individual mob kill,
- zero PVP since there are so many games out there with it already, and it always fucks up PVE balance
 

Jimbolini

Semi-pro Monopoly player
2,560
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Watching the Eq2 twitch atm and as an absolute FAN of Eq2 its clear to me...

It's over


Can see it on their faces.

I wonder if any game will be left?
 

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
536
47
Watching the Eq2 twitch atm and as an absolute FAN of Eq2 its clear to me...

It's over


Can see it on their faces.

I wonder if any game will be left?
They seemed way more upbeat than the EQ stream, also that guy on the right needs a beer stat.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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That was absolutely the biggest waste of a stream i've ever participated in to date. They were also extremely condescending and their attitudes were pathetic.
 

Jimbolini

Semi-pro Monopoly player
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955
Perception is everything (imo)....and there is NO chance any of them wanted to be there or answer any questions.

(And with 400 viewers why bother at this point)?


No idea why I get mad over stupid shit like this, but you invest years into a game, and/or idea..it sucks to see things go so wrong.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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893
I gave up on them probably a year or more ago. I thought there may be a shred of hope with Holly at the helm and possibly some desperation to try to make Daybreak some money or get canned. It appears to me, they're just coasting at best and more than likely told Daybreak about all this stuff they're doing while they spruced up their LinkedIN accounts.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
This whole paragraph just doesn't make any real sense to me, other than you like DLC. Obviously, the reason MMOs aren't free is because they aren't charities and people like money. If it's a surprise to you that they are profit driven, then I've got some nice ocean front property to sell you in Arizona. In the end, I'll go back to my original post... "The real problem for the umpteenth time, is that there are so many games out there that are complete and total crap." The evolution of the payment model has increased accessibility and broadened the market, but it hasn't caused the rampant poor game design seen in the MMO space which you seem to associate to it.
The evolution of cost based online gaming was hourly charge to monthly charge to freemium. Subscription based MMOs are outdated given the limited costs and the fact they are pure profit. WOW makes a mint just on box and expansion sales. I'd wager the sub fee is pure profit and I feel a bad deal especially given their tech is old, static, and instanced. The many F2P options out there are examples of the lack of need for a sub fee, in my opinion. The thing is, like payday loans, as long as they are making money then it's a ok in your book. ROI doesn't mean things are as they should be for consumers. The MMO landscape should be evolving and I had applauded SOE for going in a different direction. However, that is vaporware and not really something that one can use as a basis for comparison.

As far as poor game design, there have always been loads of crap games. There always will be. The problem is the fact these games are making profit and people are justifying their existence due to accounting gimmicks, and we keep seeing more of them as some continue to pay hundreds of dollars per year to a 10+ year old static instanced game, prompting companies to continue to chase the goose that is laying the golden egg that should have died long ago....
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
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I wouldn't say EQN is vaporware.. I do applaud them as well for doing something different. I think maybe the leap was too big for them and in the process they forgot their loyal EQ players.

Beating the drum, but they should have finished their EQ3 vision with limited storybricks and voxel tech(harvesting and shit) It would have helped with testing for EQN, not wasted so much money and been another revenue of income while they continue to iron out all the tech issues with EQN.