Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

While I have a modest "investment" in SC, I honestly dont expect much from it at this point. They seem to have replaced shipping a working game with a monthly "buy this ship for $$, game will be availible sometime!".

My other "investment" seems to deliver tho, Elite is releasing a working game next month and the current beta is totaly playable. They took the route of delivering a working space sim first, then focus on making DLCs with the rest of the stuff people want, something that seems to actually work out.

Faith_sl said:

My other "investment" seems to deliver tho, Elite is releasing a working game next month and the current beta is totaly playable. They took the route of delivering a working space sim first, then focus on making DLCs with the rest of the stuff people want, something that seems to actually work out.

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A quick, 3 minute perusal of the /r/Elite sub-reddit shows me that multiplayer is beyond fucked at this point and many players think its a totally empty and worthless game world and that the game needs at least 6 more months before its ready.

Do you really think the Elite devs will have multiplayer polished enough to launch in 30 days? They're describing their game as a fucking MMO on their own website, yet people can't group, trade, or mine with friends.

Eidal_sl said:

A quick, 3 minute perusal of the /r/Elite sub-reddit shows me that multiplayer is beyond fucked at this point and many players think its a totally empty and worthless game world and that the game needs at least 6 more months before its ready.

Do you really think the Elite devs will have multiplayer polished enough to launch in 30 days? They're describing their game as a fucking MMO on their own website, yet people can't group, trade, or mine with friends.

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I don't want to derail this thread, there's an Elite thread over on Other games, where I posted about how the multiplayer aspect wasn't working for me. I'll say now the last patch they did a couple of days ago improved the network code a lot, not least because they took out some of the debugging and logging code. I doubt you'll see more than 8 people often though, partly because of the network limitations, and partly because space is really big. If you spent a minute of your life in each of the systems in Elite, you'd die well before you saw all of them.

That said, seeing more people in game and not crashing doesn't mean the grouping mechanic is working, you may still have to go through hoops to have a chance of seeing your friends. The netcode is an oddball mix of peer to peer with a little client-server thrown in, so how well it works depends on who the game decides to bundle you with. If you group with friends and your connection to them isn't great, or their connections to each other (because everyone in an island cross-checks with everyone else), then you won't enjoy yourself.

Running Dog_sl said:

I don't want to derail this thread, there's an Elite thread over on Other games, where I posted about how the multiplayer aspect wasn't working for me. I'll say now the last patch they did a couple of days ago improved the network code a lot, not least because they took out some of the debugging and logging code. I doubt you'll see more than 8 people often though, partly because of the network limitations, and partly because space is really big. If you spent a minute of your life in each of the systems in Elite, you'd die well before you saw all of them.

That said, seeing more people in game and not crashing doesn't mean the grouping mechanic is working, you may still have to go through hoops to have a chance of seeing your friends. The netcode is an oddball mix of peer to peer with a little client-server thrown in, so how well it works depends on who the game decides to bundle you with. If you group with friends and your connection to them isn't great, or their connections to each other (because everyone in an island cross-checks with everyone else), then you won't enjoy yourself.

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I was kind of hoping they could pull off very large sandbox play areas but it sounds to me like what sounds great on paper is not "fun" to actually play. Now I'm kind of happy that SC is "only" shipping with like 70-100 star systems. However we may run into the exact same issue as you guys. Star Systems in SC will be big.... very big. They are going to try to balance them as best they can during early PU testing this time next year. That gives them an entire year to create star systems and make them "fun sized" if you will. Thank god they actually mentioned this and realize it can be a PITA for both them and us.

As for the connection problems that's awful. Even SC won't have dedicated servers and instead it will be on the Google Cloud which I guess is one step down from that but at least we aren't doing a crazy version of Mass Effect 3 MP client side hosting. God that sounds horrible.

Anyway I hope they get their game fixed so you can have something fun to play. So many shit games out there... we really need some awesome space games even if I don't specifically like Elite's direction I don't want to see them fail.

Faith_sl said:

While I have a modest "investment" in SC, I honestly dont expect much from it at this point. They seem to have replaced shipping a working game with a monthly "buy this ship for $$, game will be availible sometime!".

My other "investment" seems to deliver tho, Elite is releasing a working game next month and the current beta is totaly playable. They took the route of delivering a working space sim first, then focus on making DLCs with the rest of the stuff people want, something that seems to actually work out.

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I can't argue with the point about how they make $$. People are already begging them to monetize FPS (weapons/gear/armor/vehicles) which will give the Goons the next dead horse to blow the forums up over.

As for Elite it seems to me like it's DA:2 all over again in terms of development. They turn around a game in under two years using a well oiled well established team. Meanwhile it's built on top of the blood and sweat of early game development, concepting and iteration that went on for many years prior to that. So good on them but the two games at this point might as well be on entirely different platforms in terms of how different they are. Maybe that will change a lot with future additions to Elite.

Star Citizen's problem is how much money it has been making. Seriously, do we really need 3 fleshed out alien languages in the game? The amount of money they've gotten has turned their design doc into a Pie in the Sky mess. Elite has actually been forced to put out an actual game, bugs and all, and then aim for expanding on that after release. We've yet to see how that can compare to Star Citizen but so far my money is on Elite... since it's not vaporware at this point.

Variise_sl said:

I can't argue with the point about how they make $$. People are already begging them to monetize FPS (weapons/gear/armor/vehicles) which will give the Goons the next dead horse to blow the forums up over.

As for Elite it seems to me like it's DA:2 all over again in terms of development. They turn around a game in under two years using a well oiled well established team. Meanwhile it's built on top of the blood and sweat of early game development, concepting and iteration that went on for many years prior to that. So good on them but the two games at this point might as well be on entirely different platforms in terms of how different they are. Maybe that will change a lot with future additions to Elite.

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Sorry, didnt mean to turn it into ye olde SC vs ED thing, and yeah they are very diffrent games.

My problem with SC right now is that I have a glorified MOBA in Arena Commander to play (and it plays horrible) but no alpha or beta on the actual game I was sold.

Skanda_sl said:

Star Citizen's problem is how much money it has been making. Seriously, do we really need 3 fleshed out alien languages in the game? The amount of money they've gotten has turned their design doc into a Pie in the Sky mess. Elite has actually been forced to put out an actual game, bugs and all, and then aim for expanding on that after release. We've yet to see how that can compare to Star Citizen but so far my money is on Elite... since it's not vaporware at this point.

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I can't take anyone seriously that calls SC vaporware at this point. That may have been a valid claim two years, even one year ago but now? Are you serious or just trolling to try and create drama?

Case in point the comment about languages is baseless fodder. They hired two guys to sit in a room and come up with a couple of working languages and will likely have them do one or two more by release. It has virtually no impact on the game other than giving it more spice/immersion. Now if you commented on actual game mechanics that would be a valid argument about inflating expectations, development time etc. This is not one of them not only because it's not a game mechanic but also because of parallel game development. All of the various studios and contracts work together to make the game and often interact and cross pollinate contact such as the new skeleton CIG built for Illfonic's FPS module but they are mostly working on their own parts of the game. Two guys hired to do a language does not hold back development.

Tuco_sl said:

I'm also not seeing the typical noises about how much content they're generating. I really hope in 2014 they don't learn the "Content is King" lesson all over:
Content Is King by Bill Gates

If you have a large expansive space world to explore, it has to actually be large and expansive. And with their budget they can also make it very detailed (Don't believe the hype about detail being added through randomization in games like Elite

).

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Yeah procedural generation would not have made it into the game with the original game as described. It would have been exactly like Privateer no more no less. For better or worse, depending on your point of view, they are going with a partial procedural generation to help fill out the world. Basically a high level randomizer which is then touched up by hand once it creates whatever it needs to create.

But hey I can't explain it as well as Chris so watch this from the 4min mark:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGZJP5oVUn8

What he is talking about is currently in R&D still. We won't see anything tangible with it for a year at a minimum. It's a long way to go before people can claim how great it works or how horrible it all is.

Variise_sl said:

I can't take anyone seriously that calls SC vaporware at this point. That may have been a valid claim two years, even one year ago but now? Are you serious or just trolling to try and create drama?

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He's delivered a glorified flight sim in a hamster ball with horrific joystick controls and mediocre keyboard controls (last time I played a month or two ago) where all you do is fight waves of AI or a simple racing thing. Yet people keep throwing hundreds of dollars per spaceship for nothing but a bit of concept art because only a few of those ships are even hangar ready let alone flyable.

The comment about languages was meant to point out he's just wasting money because it's there to burn at this point. In no way does having actual languages help this game whatsoever and I'm sure that money could be better spent elsewhere that would have an actual impact. Star Citizen is in real danger of becoming a victim of its own success as they continue shoe horning in pointless crap like that while having less to show for it than a game that raised less than 5% of the money.


Don't get me wrong, I do hope both Star Citizen and Elite turn out great and I have bought into both of them, but I have some serious concerns about what is happening over at Cloud in regards to them letting that money get them in over their heads. As I said, they seem to have completely going into Pie in the Sky territory with everything they want to toss in before even releasing the base game.

I can understand the feelings that they may be overspending: them getting close to 400 people working on the game does give me flashbacks of Copernicus and Curt.

But the big difference here seems to be that they do not have a publisher/investor breathing down their neck, ready to kneejerk the game into ruins (and expecting a huge chunk of the profit) as well as the fact that their funding is actually real money in the bank, and not some convoluted loan that is cannibalizing itself because of the huge rate of interest. In fact, if CR is smart, this pledge money is *making* them money through interest.

I think CIG's 60 million dollars will go twice if not thrice as far, as Curts loan of 75 million from the State of Rhode Island.

I am wondering how far along 38 studios was with their game, compared to Star Citizen. Difference being that they had a strict NDA and did not show a thing, exept a few screens and some really simplistic footage of a village.

I will also add that I am thoroughly enjoying the PR and mediacircus around it. Nobody can deny that stuff like their website, the Guild tool, the frequent updates, the round tables and interviews, the conventions all around the world with glossy Folders being handed out of the newest concept ship(that already sell at a premium on ebay; the folders, not the ships(yet)) is pretty tasty stuff. These guys are PR wizards. I mean, they have a forum section that is dedicated to fan-made SC stuff..... Like engraved SC long drink glasses and such!

I mean, shit just looks slick. It's like the perfect PR-storm.

Variise_sl said:

I can't take anyone seriously that calls SC vaporware at this point. That may have been a valid claim two years, even one year ago but now? Are you serious or just trolling to try and create drama?

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Thing is, the game I thought I threw some money at is still nowhere to be seen. I did not want a drone fight in space, no pvp deathmatches, FPS or pod-racing mini games. I might have missed it, but where is the game Space Citizen set out to be? Modular design is all niffty and such but considering the resources they have been given I expected more of the real game by this point.

Also, fuck the idiot who is in charge of the flightstick/m&kb controls. 6+ months into arena commander and its still wworse then GoGs Xwing? Wtf? The whole flight model has serious issues but combined with the piss-poor controls its a joke.

I do belive there is a game at the end of the tunnel, and I hope it will be good, but what I am looking at right now makes me doubt it. I want to be proven wrong tho, because we need more of this sort of games and if this was to blow up its basicaly telling EA&co that they were right in not giving a shit about what the customers want and just produce games the way they always have.

Faith_sl said:

Thing is, the game I thought I threw some money at is still nowhere to be seen. I did not want a drone fight in space, no pvp deathmatches, FPS or pod-racing mini games. I might have missed it, but where is the game Space Citizen set out to be? Modular design is all niffty and such but considering the resources they have been given I expected more of the real game by this point.

Also, fuck the idiot who is in charge of the flightstick/m&kb controls. 6+ months into arena commander and its still wworse then GoGs Xwing? Wtf? The whole flight model has serious issues but combined with the piss-poor controls its a joke.

I do belive there is a game at the end of the tunnel, and I hope it will be good, but what I am looking at right now makes me doubt it. I want to be proven wrong tho, because we need more of this sort of games and if this was to blow up its basicaly telling EA&co that they were right in not giving a shit about what the customers want and just produce games the way they always have.

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I'm going to assume you haven't played the game since the last patch. The controls, from my understanding, have been completely revamped. It's not 100% where I would consider start playing with it but from those who have it's like night and day from the previous build. I can't do a good enough job explaining it so here it is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBf9Ii_JOQk#t=141

Oh I played last night, and yes, improvment, no, not even close to acceptable. It bothers me because the most important aspect of gameplay in this sort of game is to have a good flight model that makes you feel like you are actually handling a ship (well, imagine that you feel like you handling a ship.... but you get the point).

Without the feeling of being in the cockpit and flying your ship, the rest of the games immersion falls flat.

Tuco_sl said:

This sounds silly but it's very possible they've been so ambitious with their flight model they've built themselves into a corner when they could've just modeled after a tried and true system that XWing (or whatever) used.

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Iirc Xwing used atmospheric flight models, no turning the ship around while continuing in the same direction etc? I'm sure alot of people that arent as informed as their forum population are going to be surprised by physics-based space flight, for good or bad.

How has the money per backer ratio developed throughout 2014? I remember way back when I last read about it they were at ~$100 per back on average, which doesnt sound too out of line.

Tuco_sl said:

I feel like if you're going to do non-atmospheric based space flight you need to go all the way and stop creating ship models that look like scifi renditions of atmospheric-based crafts.

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That works fine for a space station, but if the ships are supposed to reenter an atmosphere based area they might need to still stick with a design that can do that. Besides you cannot make to many different kinds of saucer designs or smooth cyclinder designs. You want gritty familiar looking ships.

Faith_sl said:

Oh I played last night, and yes, improvment, no, not even close to acceptable. It bothers me because the most important aspect of gameplay in this sort of game is to have a good flight model that makes you feel like you are actually handling a ship (well, imagine that you feel like you handling a ship.... but you get the point).

Without the feeling of being in the cockpit and flying your ship, the rest of the games immersion falls flat.

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Yeah this is a huge concern for me as well. I know the design guys are beating themselves up trying to make it work but I feel like they were asked to deliver the impossible. Thankfully they have a ton of people testing it and commenting on it, from the noobs off the street expecting X-Wing gameplay to the hardcore sim enthusiasts expecting 100% realism or violence will ensue crowd. I don't know what the solution is but I do know they haven't reached it. They have about two years to get it right and had about six months so far to work on it.

I'm hopeful but like Tuco said. If they turn around and say fuck it it's done we are moving on no matter what I think it will fall apart. I can't see them doing it however. If this was Ubisoft or EA sure but that hasn't been the experience with CIG yet... and I'm trying to be really positive here because normally I'm depressingly cynical as fuck. I have one hope.... one so I hope they don't crush my dream.