Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Blackwulf

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The team's current plan is to deliver an FPS module to the PTU during or shortly after Gamescom, in the early-to-mid August timeframe. Roberts said something like "give or take a week or two." He also said, don't hold him to it, as it's just an estimate they feel comfortable with. It's a good interview.
 

Variise

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The problem here is people don't listen. They stop listening at 3-5 weeks. If they pass that by another 3 weeks you will see the same bullshit pitchfork arguments as before.

Just need to keep reminding people that it's not like making a spaceship where they have a very good idea of how long it takes to go from Concept to a completed fully animated 3D model. This stuff is the real hard things to get right that so many games get wrong and it's probably the least sexy to the majority of people. When this is the stuff that holds back the pretty sexy things that's when people lose their shit.

Better delayed and good than rushed and shit.
 

Palum

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Haha. Really? The thing is that the only major components that have ever stopped a game like this from existing are the client and server architecture and to some degree a graphics engine if you really want things to be as pretty as you'd experience in contemporary games of smaller scales.

That whole net code part, you know the stuff that basically every mmo scale dev studio besides Blizzard has utterly failed at over and over for decades? They've basically proven nothing of worth yet.

I'm not saying they will or have to fail, but you're kidding yourself if you don't realize that in order for the true "vision" to come out it has to play and play well not just get "release" status.

There's no technical hurdles with an fps, space sim, market simulator, mmo, etc standalone and yet they fail all the time from larger companies WITH their eye on the prize instead of "vision". Combining them all is not exactly Legos. Combining them all well has yet to be done. They don't have the Apollo budget unfortunately. Look at the stripped content turd that is Destiny and how much it cost to make and all it is is basically StarMarine without all the other bits...

I just think you're setting yourself up for supreme disappointment when you are suggesting some FPS alpha release is likely to have already solved all the technical challenges and means success as long as it happens. None of that would be an issue if they weren't blowing money like 38S. The fact is that they should be releasing Freelancer 2 like I fucking paid for before trying to solve world hunger by selling fake spaceships.
 

Mist

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That whole net code part, you know the stuff that basically every mmo scale dev studio besides Blizzard has utterly failed at over and over for decades?
Uh, Planetside 2, and PS1 for that matter, handles 200+ person battles with no lag at 70+ fps on my mediocre computer. And SOE are monkeys, so it can't be that hard.

This game doesn't even need to have instances that big. I see absolutely no reason why this game would need larger than 64 player instances, BF4 size.
 

Palum

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4 yrs 30 million dollars and one mmofps behind them. Again, RSI has done really nothing yet to display the capacity to fix the technical hurdles which at their core have always been the issue with an all encompassing space adventure game.
 

Carl_sl

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We started things off by making a number of netcode improvements in the lead-up to Thursday's internal company-wide playtest. and using the results of that playtest, we've gone on to make several others! A big focus of these changes is making sure that movement transitions are serialized. Issues with passing/clipping through objects have been significantly de creased with a pair of fixes by Paul J. He's updated the game to use the living entity's orientation rather than the articulated entity for intersection tests and also fixed a frame behind issue with the living entity's bounding box calculation. In plain English: no more clipping problems!

We also tested passing data from game servers to our Platform services; that's the process by which the game talks to the website and your Leaderboard data appears here on RSI. We identified one issue there, with a fix in progress as we speak. And we resolved another pair of outstanding issues: one that caused problems equipping/throwing grenades while holstering a weapon and the other that prevented the personal shield from being destroyed. We're continuing to investigate a cause for issues with player prediction that are currently resulting in teleporting and hits not syncing up between clients properly. This investigation is ongoing, but we're very hopeful this bug is about to be smashed.
 

Variise

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In case anyone is confused about what Carl wrote that's from the Star Marine update I linked earlier.

Palum you on the sauce? Because you aren't making a lot of sense. Try again when less drunk maybe?
 

eXarc

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This could be my all time perfect game if it actually gets released with everything as promised and whatnot...
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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In case anyone is confused about what Carl wrote that's from the Star Marine update I linked earlier.

Palum you on the sauce? Because you aren't making a lot of sense. Try again when less drunk maybe?
Not really, the point is a) the Freelancer 2 part should be first and only priority until out and b) they still haven't shown anything relating to Starmarine functioning as anything but a standalone shooter.

Curt's Amalur game was a solid C+ too but at least I didn't live in RI so I didn't pay for the none of that MMO ever came out. Let that sink in a bit though, 38S was still farther along in their tale than RSI is now...

I mean you think I'm drunk... But you have assholes buying horse armor DLCs for a game they aren't even laser focused on releasing LoL.
 

Thlayli

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Quick question. Is Arena Commander fun yet? For like, the average gamer.

I swear I'm not trolling, I'm just curious about how the actual spaceship combat plays in a game that is ostensibly about spaceship combat. I'll admit to being pretty casual about this game and not following super closely, I just remember there being complaints when it first came out.
 

Variise

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Not really, the point is a) the Freelancer 2 part should be first and only priority until out and b) they still haven't shown anything relating to Starmarine functioning as anything but a standalone shooter.

Curt's Amalur game was a solid C+ too but at least I didn't live in RI so I didn't pay for the none of that MMO ever came out. Let that sink in a bit though, 38S was still farther along in their tale than RSI is now...

I mean you think I'm drunk... But you have assholes buying horse armor DLCs for a game they aren't even laser focused on releasing LoL.
Ok so I spent some time reading about what you are referring to and I think I get your gripe.

The first part I 100% agree with you. Chris should have stuck to his guns and just made the game people expected instead of constantly pushing major features for release. I mean something as big as capital ship piloting/crewing was what a 1 million goal? That will ultimately cost them what? 10 million + for the ships alone (design, 3D art) and another 10 million + to design the instance manager to make them function? Germany is leading the charge there. There was no Germany in 2012 and nobody thought CryTek was going to fold and half their top guys would land on Chris' lap. Pure blind luck. I know some of them have left already and returned to CryTek for bigger pay and other reasons. A lot of people want to see him fail especially publishers that make a mint off developers and perch on the corpses of burnt out development teams the world over.

And here is where you and I divorce.

You are trying to compare Chris, a successful business man, producer, director (he can't write worth shit btw) with many games under his belt responsible for a whole franchise in gaming, to a pitcher with no gaming or business experience? At least try and compare him to someone inside the industry. You aren't even reaching. There was nothing ever there and nobody should take what you write in that vain seriously.
 

Excidium

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Uh, Planetside 2, and PS1 for that matter, handles 200+ person battles with no lag at 70+ fps on my mediocre computer. And SOE are monkeys, so it can't be that hard.

This game doesn't even need to have instances that big. I see absolutely no reason why this game would need larger than 64 player instances, BF4 size.
You're an idiot if you think Planetside 2 runs well. My largest technical complaint is how poor and unstable that game ran throughout my 2 1/2 years of playing it.
 

Variise

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Quick question. Is Arena Commander fun yet? For like, the average gamer.

I swear I'm not trolling, I'm just curious about how the actual spaceship combat plays in a game that is ostensibly about spaceship combat. I'll admit to being pretty casual about this game and not following super closely, I just remember there being complaints when it first came out.
I tried it a few patches ago and enjoyed Vanduul Swarm. I didn't get very far since I don't have a proper flight setup but even with a mouse it was very easy to get into and I enjoyed for the few hours I was mucking around with it. The game has had several patches since and a major one just got released to PTU (pre-prod build meant for testing the public can get into before release to everyone usually a week later) that fixes a ton of issues from the last patch that broke AC (missile spamming in PvP).

The biggest issue you may run into is older ships not having the new damage state system implemented yet. What happens is they load into the game and it's something like 465MB of art that has to load instantly so you have a huge hickup. Same thing when a ship like that explodes into 50+ parts. The newer ships are like 135MB or so and it's much less noticeable if at all.

The game right now is more fun with a friend to hang out with since there aren't a ton of things you can do. If you are looking for MMO style play it's not there yet. We are still at least a month away from Social and probably 6-12+ months away from the very early Persistent Universe. The closest thing is Vanduul Swarm Co-Op right now. Multi-crew is getting a big reveal at Gamescom in 3 weeks but it's likely several months away from release at the earliest.

StarMarine is roughly 3-9 weeks away from a PTU build at best which is 16vs16 FPS gameplay.

So not a lot in game right now but can be fun with lots of new stuff down the road. We just don't know when with MMO features many months to a year away.
 

Palum

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Ok so I spent some time reading about what you are referring to and I think I get your gripe.

The first part I 100% agree with you. Chris should have stuck to his guns and just made the game people expected instead of constantly pushing major features for release. I mean something as big as capital ship piloting/crewing was what a 1 million goal? That will ultimately cost them what? 10 million + for the ships alone (design, 3D art) and another 10 million + to design the instance manager to make them function? Germany is leading the charge there. There was no Germany in 2012 and nobody thought CryTek was going to fold and half their top guys would land on Chris' lap. Pure blind luck. I know some of them have left already and returned to CryTek for bigger pay and other reasons. A lot of people want to see him fail especially publishers that make a mint off developers and perch on the corpses of burnt out development teams the world over.

And here is where you and I divorce.

You are trying to compare Chris, a successful business man, producer, director (he can't write worth shit btw) with many games under his belt responsible for a whole franchise in gaming, to a pitcher with no gaming or business experience? At least try and compare him to someone inside the industry. You aren't even reaching. There was nothing ever there and nobody should take what you write in that vain seriously.
I think fundamentally, KS companies should be run like public companies and all of their finances fairly open. All they show is the amount collected, at least as far as I can find. Can you find any evidence that Chris is running the business well? I'm sure I'd be tickled to death if he has only spent 1/5 the money in 3 years of development, but I don't think so.
 

Variise

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I think fundamentally, KS companies should be run like public companies and all of their finances fairly open. All they show is the amount collected, at least as far as I can find. Can you find any evidence that Chris is running the business well? I'm sure I'd be tickled to death if he has only spent 1/5 the money in 3 years of development, but I don't think so.
I can't fundamentally disagree with that view. I have no clue what the laws are around this. I suspect there aren't any as KS is a new thing and like anything new will need to be regulated. Even if Chris ran his company 100% efficiently we know for a fact many other companies fold like a kite almost as soon as KS is over or they stop supporting their games after releasing an early build. I remember seeing a pie chart on Steam Early-Access games and something like 43% of all games either failed to deliver or the developer stopped supporting the title. That's a shocking number IMO. There should be massive red flags posted about it explaining to people that the game is not guaranteed to release. I know they already do it but I don't think it's sinking in with people. It's an all around shitty situation.

As for how much he has spent I have no idea. He has talked about it to some degree but never drilled down into the exact numbers. We do know that it costs CIG upwards of $80,000 a month to support people playing the game online as is. Which to me is a shockingly high number considering how few people actually actively play. I don't think that includes the cost of bandwidth for pushing patches but it might. I know they talk about that sometimes and it's very expensive.

I remember someone once asking if moving to Google Cloud would be cheaper and the answer was that it's even more expensive but it's the only way to go if you want to provide users with decent connections across the globe since it uses dedicated Fiber lines once you onramp to Google Cloud from your ISP.

So my concern is less about the cost of production and more the cost of live-ops. They also need to keep production going once the game launches to add more chapters post SQ42. Those are the Mission Disks that won't be required to continue to playing but they will be available to help fund the game. I'm guessing they will go for about the price of a Season Pass which is perfect for something with 15-25 hours of solid single player gameplay.

They have some 300 people in house and about 200 contractors working on the game but that's recent. It would be wrong to try and measure their costs from the beginning with those numbers. For the first year of pre-prod it was basically 3 people (Chris, Dave (writer) and Sean Tracy) and a few more from CryTek off and on working on the "treatment" for a year mostly pro-bono and it still cost about a million and a half to make. I'm not sure if that's when Chris purchased the CryEngine or if he did that after. I'm going to say he did that much later and it aint free.

And this is why I agree with what you said. There is no way to really keep track of costs from those early days onward.

What I do know is they are currently looking for 35 3D artists to work on ships. They lost some as artists tend to be more free spirits and that's pretty much how the industry works. Chris is not paying these guys top dollars so once someone has had their artistic side filled they move on to greener pastures. It's still nice to know that guys like David Hobbins that moved from Guardians of the Galaxy to Star Citizen to Star Wars is once again doing contract work on Star Citizen.

So the problem of paying massive salaries to 500 people is non-existent for good and will. It causes issues with retention of staff but they can't compete with EA that pays 2-3x as much for the same positions. CIG can't afford it and Ben has said so numerous times. They do have a budget we just don't get to see it.

One last thing Chris mentioned. He was asked more than once by the media and elsewhere what would happen should the funding dry up. He has said that he has enough put aside to complete the project as is but a lot of ships and some features would need to wait post release. Which is what you and I think they should have done from day 1 anyway. How much of a padding does he have? From what I recall it's somewhere around 15-20 million. The rest is budgeted to try and get the game done but he does budget ahead of time counting expected pledges (he and Ben said they can gauge it well enough now to do this). Which means he has spent money on his budget he doesn't have. That leaves me worried a bit. At least he put money aside which is good contingency that other studios don't do or they sell out (CDPR).
 

Tuco

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To me it's absolute stupidity and I lay full blame on the 2%ers both here and elsewhere. Barely functioning monkeys that spend their free time flinging poo to make themselves feel better. So while you may be thinking along the same lines I do and that they should just release it as is and let us give er and give feedback and just get it over with that's no longer possible.
Maybe I'm alone here but I don't know of anyone in this community who wants them to release stuff before it's ready. The negative folks, including me, say the scope creep in this project combined with their poor track record of releasing their modules increase the risk of this thing blowing up before it's in a playable state.

I don't really trust Chris Roberts when he says he has enough saved to finish the game if the funding dries up. And I think once the population shelling out hundreds for ships starts to panic you'll see that funding bottom out quickly.
 

a_skeleton_03

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Maybe I'm alone here but I don't know of anyone in this community who wants them to release stuff before it's ready. The negative folks, including me, say the scope creep in this project combined with their poor track record of releasing their modules increase the risk of this thing blowing up before it's in a playable state.

I don't really trust Chris Roberts when he says he has enough saved to finish the game if the funding dries up. And I think once the population shelling out hundreds for ships starts to panic you'll see that funding bottom out quickly.
Yup, this.

I don't want this to fail but I don't think it's all on the up and up even if it's not shady stuff I don't like it when people hire family. I think the scope creep is getting insane and they are pulling a Firefall here just on a grander scale.
 

Mist

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I think anyone who isn't delusional knows that they're going to run out of money unless they sell a whole lot of copies of Squadron 42. 4+ mil at the very least.
 

Skanda

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4+ mil at the very least.
I just don't see them doing that post release. Most of the people interested in this game have probably already bought it. There may be a small spike in sales after S42 comes out as they scoop up the 'wait & see' people but I doubt there is a anywhere close to enough of those types to get close to the millions.
 

Palum

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Yea, it's clear RSI will live and die by DLC both before and after SQ42 is released. They will push more fantasy ships as well as hawk wares and content for the game in the meantime.

Of course this brings up again the central point of my concern- I'm pretty sure most everyone who is rabidly excited about Freelancer 2 has only tepid interest in SQ42. I have zero faith the sideline title SP experience is going to be as awesome as Freelancer was.