Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Blackwulf

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The whales spending thousands of dollars on this game are kind of like whales that buy land plots or castles in more traditional MMO type games. Really the bigger ships are only useful for certain activities and you can only use one at a time. This current "sale" for $2500 includes a lot of ships, and one big ship (Idris) - it's like buying a lot of different mounts and a castle. Guys buying the $400 dollar science ship are buying a house + farm. All this shit can be earned in game, and all this shit can be destroyed/taken in game. Sure, the whales will have insurance, but they'll have to wait for the replacement, longer in the case of big expensive ships, and they'll have to deal with the knowledge that some noobs just blew their shit up.

Lot's of whales will have their PVP slider way toward PVE and they'll never leave protected space. They're just gonna play house in their big ship with some of their org mates. None of this should be game breaking for other players. Did you read about how fucking big the zones are? The SC 2.0 Alpha build will have a test zone that is 2 million square kilometers. That's one zone. Have you looked at how big the star map is? There will be tons of NPC ships around planets and you'll only occasionally have to deal with the whales and their big toys.
 

Furry

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Well I was thinking that shit was retarded, but now that I know space is big, its a lot more sensible. Thanks for clearing up my confusion on space castles.
 

Blackwulf

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Well I was thinking that shit was retarded, but now that I know space is big, its a lot more sensible. Thanks for clearing up my confusion on space castles.
I know you're trying to be clever, but there are people that don't realize how big the zones are going to be. There are plenty of space games that would feel crowded with a thousand ships in a system. This game you will have to actively seek out each other for a thousand ships to even be noticeable, no matter how big they are.
 

a_skeleton_03

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I know you're trying to be clever, but there are people that don't realize how big the zones are going to be. There are plenty of space games that would feel crowded with a thousand ships in a system. This game you will have to actively seek out each other for a thousand ships to even be noticeable, no matter how big they are.
You missed his point.

What is the point of getting all dressed up in your awesome ship if nobody ever sees you ...
 

Mr Creed

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I know you're trying to be clever, but there are people that don't realize how big the zones are going to be. There are plenty of space games that would feel crowded with a thousand ships in a system. This game you will have to actively seek out each other for a thousand ships to even be noticeable, no matter how big they are.
There are plenty of space games that would feel crowded with a thousand ships in a system.
There are plenty of space games
There are? I mean I get your point and agree with it, but you make it sound like there a many alternatives to this dream they are chasing. Truth is there are only a handful of choices to begin with.
 

Palum

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I know you're trying to be clever, but there are people that don't realize how big the zones are going to be. There are plenty of space games that would feel crowded with a thousand ships in a system. This game you will have to actively seek out each other for a thousand ships to even be noticeable, no matter how big they are.
OK but either piracy, combat and trading are a big deal or they aren't? You can't simultaneously claim that the zones are big so you don't have to worry about people with $$ but also that there will be vibrant markets, opportunities for piracy, fleets, etc. I mean, just in the name alonemultipersonvehicle it implies a central area to find crew members or interact with others.
 

Erronius

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Lot's of whales will have their PVP slider way toward PVE and they'll never leave protected space.
But what constitutes "protected space" in this game? Will you not be able to target/attack in certain systems at all, or will it be like EVE hisec where high-value targets will still be suicide-ganked if they aren't careful?

Plus, if memory serves Furry has a bit of experience when it comes to piloting giant ships that were juicy targets in space-games, and EVE was pretty large and that wasn't much of a protection at times.

We could probably go the route of debating what "big" really means or comparing SCO "big" to EVE "big", but past a certain point I'd argue that "larger" won't mean much of anything. Unless you will be forced to slowboat everywhere, stuff like warp-travel might render a lot of that meaningless. I haven't really been following this game, but there are probably a lot more important factors than"space is going to be big, yo".
 

Blackwulf

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There are? I mean I get your point and agree with it, but you make it sound like there a many alternatives to this dream they are chasing. Truth is there are only a handful of choices to begin with.
Yeah, you're right - I typed that a lot differently than what was going on in my head. I think I was imagining other MMO-style games and thinking of thousands of players, and then conflating that with my experience in single player space games, and imagining how crowded thousands of ships in a system would be in that sort of imaginary scenario. I guess the only similar large-space type multi player games that are currently playable would be Elite Dangerous and Eve, right? I've never played either of those - are their zones millions of kilometers in size? (without load screens)

I think what made me think this whole large zone game, where millions of square miles are possible without load screens, is sort of unique was because in order to achieve that, they had to rebuild part of the Cryengine and optimize it for 64 bit floating point calculations. It was my understanding that other 'out of the box' 3D-first person game engines (including stock Cryengine) are all 32 bit, and allow for much smaller zones.

OK but either piracy, combat and trading are a big deal or they aren't? You can't simultaneously claim that the zones are big so you don't have to worry about people with $$ but also that there will be vibrant markets, opportunities for piracy, fleets, etc. I mean, just in the name alonemultipersonvehicle it implies a central area to find crew members or interact with others.
Sure, there will be hot spots, and you can see where they are on the new map. There are dangerous areas, there are trade routes, there will be missions to go to contested areas, and I suppose you're right, an organized group of people flying an Idris into a pirate base are going to have a lot more success than me and a couple buddies in our $45 dollar starter ships. I think I was just trying to say that space will be big, and if you want to avoid those whales that also happen to be organized and aggressive, you should be able to.

But what constitutes "protected space" in this game? Will you not be able to target/attack in certain systems at all, or will it be like EVE hisec where high-value targets will still be suicide-ganked if they aren't careful?

Plus, if memory serves Furry has a bit of experience when it comes to piloting giant ships that were juicy targets in space-games, and EVE was pretty large and that wasn't much of a protection at times.

We could probably go the route of debating what "big" really means or comparing SCO "big" to EVE "big", but past a certain point I'd argue that "larger" won't mean much of anything. Unless you will be forced to slowboat everywhere, stuff like warp-travel might render a lot of that meaningless. I haven't really been following this game, but there are probably a lot more important factors than"space is going to be big, yo".
Good question - I know there will never be a magical force that stops you from shooting at a ship, so even in "secure" space, you are at risk from outlaws. Roberts claims there will be 9 AI agents in the game for ever 1 player, and that in "secure" space there will be law enforcement. There will also be bounty missions for players, and I think your life will become harried if you do murder players in controlled space. All we have to go on at this point are their plans, though, and who knows how well they'll pull it off.

With regard to EVE, I bow to your and Furry's experience - I've never played it. Well, I tried it about 5 or 6 years ago and it was too much like playing a spreadsheet for me.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
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Yeah, you're right - I typed that a lot differently than what was going on in my head. I think I was imagining other MMO-style games and thinking of thousands of players, and then conflating that with my experience in single player space games, and imagining how crowded thousands of ships in a system would be in that sort of imaginary scenario. I guess the only similar large-space type multi player games that are currently playable would be Elite Dangerous and Eve, right? I've never played either of those - are their zones millions of kilometers in size? (without load screens)
ED is a blend of virtually infinite space with local instancing. The game will connect you to players who are nearby so that they show up on your display, up to the limitations of the network; if no-one's in the vicinity (and you're well outside colonised space or off the beaten track so there's no NPCs) you'll realise how big and empty space is. Those network limitations are mostly due to the peer-to-peer technology that Frontier employed to avoid the overhead of running game servers, which means that even in "busy" environments you won't see that many players about. It's not all downside though; limiting the numbers you see can help with issues of docking at busy stations - there are few things more annoying than forming a queue to deliver cargo - and in PvP things are frantic enough even with a handful of real players involved, although large-scale fleet battles would be great to see.

You're always going to get load screens of one sort or another, even if they are hidden by jumping to hyperspace, passing through a docking bay or walking through an airlock or whatever. What you want are quick transitions that don't break immersion.

So in short, the environment size is a definite issue but so is the capability of the game to display and track what everyone is doing. ED has gone for the "big and empty" feel of space by design, and by budget limitation. SC doesn't have the budget limitations, and doesn't have the galaxy-wide size either, so it should feel more compact.
 

Sylas

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The whales spending thousands of dollars on this game are kind of like whales that buy land plots or castles in more traditional MMO type games. Really the bigger ships are only useful for certain activities and you can only use one at a time. This current "sale" for $2500 includes a lot of ships, and one big ship (Idris) - it's like buying a lot of different mounts and a castle. Guys buying the $400 dollar science ship are buying a house + farm. All this shit can be earned in game, and all this shit can be destroyed/taken in game. Sure, the whales will have insurance, but they'll have to wait for the replacement, longer in the case of big expensive ships, and they'll have to deal with the knowledge that some noobs just blew their shit up.

Lot's of whales will have their PVP slider way toward PVE and they'll never leave protected space. They're just gonna play house in their big ship with some of their org mates. None of this should be game breaking for other players. Did you read about how fucking big the zones are? The SC 2.0 Alpha build will have a test zone that is 2 million square kilometers. That's one zone. Have you looked at how big the star map is? There will be tons of NPC ships around planets and you'll only occasionally have to deal with the whales and their big toys.
2 million square km is a meaningless number precisely because it's a space game. How fast do ships travel? is there FTL travel? I assume there has to be FTL travel otherwise enjoy spending 9 months IRL holding down 'W' to get anywhere.

Then again 2mil square km is only 1400ish km across. And that's hoping you didn't mean 2mil cubed km (since we're talking space, you can fly in 3 dimensions right?), in which case it would only be a ~126 km box. Which is a comically small sized "zone" and completely unrealistic, unless every zone is just a small area of space above a planet, like a space station or something, and this game has tons of zones, like 1000 zones to cover a single area of a planet or something. shit grids in eve (grid is basically everything you see on your screen/overview) are larger than that.

I guess the only similar large-space type multi player games that are currently playable would be Elite Dangerous and Eve, right? I've never played either of those - are their zones millions of kilometers in size? (without load screens)
Zones in Eve range from 30 AU to 130+ AU (think the largest system is like 147 AU). an AU of course is an astronomical unit, equivalent to the distance from the Sun to the Earth, or ~150mil km, so yeah a 130 AU zone is over 19.5 billion km from one end to the other, or 380 quintillion km squared.

Though technically zone's do not end in eve, you can keep flying in 1 direction as far as you care to, there are no zone 'edges', only stargates used to travel from one star system to another.

That's a single zone with no loading screens and no instancing. and there's over 7000 zones in eve.

And none of that matters until you supply context. Which for a space game trying to brag about how large your zones are, you need to know how fast ships travel.

In eve ships travel from ~60-80 m/s (that's battleships without propulsion mods and capital sized ships) to upwards of 10 km/s using sublight engines (fast frigates with micro warp drives), and 0.5 AU/s to as much as 18 au/s while using warp drives to travel between 2 points in a zone. So yeah freighters (huge cargo ships) take like 2-5 minutes to FTL warp across each zone. and sublight engines? forget it. That same freighter trying to fly from 1 side of the zone to the other without using it's warp drive is still flying because the game has only been out for 12 years.

which means sub-light travel is used during combat to move around, position, close range, disengage etc while FTL travel is used to travel across zones as well as from the zone entrance to wherever the combat is occurring.
 

Skanda

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Jumping into the pile Elite dwarfs all that. Supercruise flight (Inter Solar System) uses Light Seconds (1 ls = 299,792,458 meters) as a measurement. There are systems with objects tens of thousands of light seconds away from the star. 2 million km isn't all that impressive if you're trying to awe people with big numbers.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
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Fuck Hutton Orbital.
frown.png
 

hodj

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Elite Dangerous needs more shit to do (which they seem to be working on with the xpac, though they'll still need probably 2-3 times as many ships and 2-3 times more shit to do).

I like the game a lot. But its just...it needs more shit to do. I can't make it any clearer than that.
 

Skanda

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I would love to see what Braben could do with even half of what SC got. As it stands he's actually produced a game on nearly a tenth of the budget.
 

hodj

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I would love to see what Braben could do with even half of what SC got. As it stands he's actually produced a game on nearly a tenth of the budget.
Truth.

And its a solid foundation they're still iterating upon and funding via expansions and some token purchasable ship paint features and stuff that are all really nice.
 

hodj

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I really want to get into ED but I want to go all out flight stick but then I worry I will be bored an hour later. So torn.
This is why I say it just needs more shit to do. First of all, I don't play it every day or even every week. I play it in spurts for a few days to a week every month or two. When I do play it, thus far, I've exclusively gone between my base station, and a point nearby that allows me to scan for bounties and kill them and collect the bounties for cash. There's been some exploration and shit, like when I accidentally got a bounty on myself in a sector and had to leave it to find another base station with a nearby hunting point that was profitable, but for the most part, that's literally all I've done.

There's mining, and cargo trading between stations, and there's some quests, but they seem to hard with the starting ship, and once I figured out how to do the hunting properly, I make so much money in such a short amount of time that I've seen no good reason to do the quests either.

So yes, you would probably get bored in an hour if you played it remotely like I do.

Its a game I like but I'm very conflicted about.