Starfield - Fallout fallout that isn't ES6

Caliane · Jun 13, 2023

yeah. its hard to pin point. I think there was a newness, uniqueness to them back in the day. But now, they are just so repetitive.
one aspect is the magic as I was noting. sci-fi space weapons tend to be so very the same. Magic lets them be creative in gameplay. you'd think "tech indistinquishable from magic" would be more of a thing. but nah, its all xwings/star trek. lasers, chain guns, missiles. no drones, no nanobot swarms, gravity guns, etc.

space is big and empty. is always a hurdle to be covered. you just can't have the "head off in one direction and come across emergent gameplay" of a skyrim, etc.

mount and blade, x4, starsector, kenshi.. simple mission based sci fi doesn't have the draw of these empire builders.

I need to try x4. I don't hear gushing reviews, but it's got to be right up my ally. I need to see why its not as "must play" as kenshi, starsector etc.

2d space games seem to be more fun. starsector. Interacting with the game, via 2d screen, 2d mouse/kb, 2d ui, etc.. its possible its just us humans not being built for 3d space combat/movement, or its the UI/pc interface just isn't.

having both ship combat and personal combat in this seems like a bad idea. Its hard enough to do either one alone good. If I were making this, I probably would not have ship combat. I'd maybe have some automated ship combat, where drones/ai/companions handle that, while the player focuses on boarding. not unlike warhammer 40k.

Tuco · Jun 13, 2023

Utnayan said:
I would say they aren't deep enough. Games like Privateer and Privateer 2, Xwing, Tie Fighter, X-Wing alliance, had either great story elements, fantastic piracy options and almost trade wars styles to them, or both. Seems the past 20 years past Freelancer they have just become arcade style 60 FPS shoot fests without any depth.

Thing is, for me anyway, it needs everything. Elite Dangerous + fantastic flying/combat + Story. From the looks of it, it seems they may have dug themselves out of a rut with some options. You have resource gathering, ship customization, boarding ships to kill the people inside and take the ship over (That's pretty awesome) and obviously a story and piracy options - however, 30 FPS. I think they could firmly knock it out of the park if they would have segmented engine traversal to a Z Axis space sim in which detail could still be there but obviously not the same background streaming it requires on planets to optimize for 60 FPS. Either way though from the looks of it at this point they did a lot of work.

For me I don't think it needs everything, but a game that has everything, especially with optional components, is ideal. A big budget narrative and world-building makes the trading/base building simulation more enjoyable, but I just haven't been able to get into ED, X4/X4 etc.

It's crazy that 24 years after its release, Freelancer is still literally the best story-driven space-combat sim. I think part of that is driven by Star Citizen sucking up all $$$ for a Freelancer 2 over the last decade and Elite Dangerous, X4 and other games focusing on the space trucker experience.

Utnayan · Jun 13, 2023

Yeah and Odyssey being a major flop didn't help ED either. I liked ED for what it was, but when they stopped Series X development, it lost all luster for me. Couch Space Sim was fantastic.

Tuco · Jun 13, 2023

Caliane said:
yeah. its hard to pin point. I think there was a newness, uniqueness to them back in the day. But now, they are just so repetitive.
one aspect is the magic as I was noting. sci-fi space weapons tend to be so very the same. Magic lets them be creative in gameplay. you'd think "tech indistinquishable from magic" would be more of a thing. but nah, its all xwings/star trek. lasers, chain guns, missiles. no drones, no nanobot swarms, gravity guns, etc.

space is big and empty. is always a hurdle to be covered. you just can't have the "head off in one direction and come across emergent gameplay" of a skyrim, etc.

mount and blade, x4, starsector, kenshi.. simple mission based sci fi doesn't have the draw of these empire builders.

I need to try x4. I don't hear gushing reviews, but it's got to be right up my ally. I need to see why its not as "must play" as kenshi, starsector etc.

2d space games seem to be more fun. starsector. Interacting with the game, via 2d screen, 2d mouse/kb, 2d ui, etc.. its possible its just us humans not being built for 3d space combat/movement, or its the UI/pc interface just isn't.

having both ship combat and personal combat in this seems like a bad idea. Its hard enough to do either one alone good. If I were making this, I probably would not have ship combat. I'd maybe have some automated ship combat, where drones/ai/companions handle that, while the player focuses on boarding. not unlike warhammer 40k.

I've sunken thousands of hours into Mount and Blade / Bannerlord and the base gameplay of riding around a horse is still extremely compelling to me.

It's that base gameplay that just doesn't draw me into space combat sims that I think is because they are missing the components you cite that adds depth. The core gameplay of "Put your reticle on this leading target box and press fire" is broke and old. Chorus tried to spice it up adding teleport-type magic abilities and that worked really well (ironically the narrative elements kinda got in the way of the gameplay in that game).

Starsector is another game I had to drop because the core gameplay wasn't fun for me personally. It had everything I was looking for for a space sim game but I just never got to a point where any of it was "fun".

I never got into Star Citizen or ED but everytime I've watched gameplay of dogfighting it looks like the same shit I did as a teenager playing Tie Fighter.

The whole mechanic is boring and stupid unrealistic. Space battles occurring in 10 kilometer bubbles with low terminal velocities and low range weapons is a joke, so you might as well add fireballs, teleportation, stealth and other gameplay mechanics to make it more fun. This is especially true after reading space opera novels like Expanse or the Honor Harrington series that try to dream up realistic space combat situations given certain plausible sci fi technologies.

Bethesda has never been a huge leader in combat mechanics but if they really did create a broke ass space combat gameplay a year ago and spent a year redoing it, I'm excited to see what they came up with. Note that I haven't watched any of their videos so they might just be copy-pasting whatever ED is doing for space combat and hoping for the best

Tuco · Jun 13, 2023

Urlithani said:
I can just imagine some modders making Squadron 41 in Starfield and releasing it before SQ42. That would be amazing and hilarious.

I bet there will be a pathway to import the ship models from Star Citizen into Starfield. SC has some nice looking ships.

TJT · Jun 13, 2023

How many Star Citizen ships does Tuco own huh?

Starfield should definitely have some degree of space sim but I was never that into it so if I can ignore most of it that would be cool.

Sludig · Jun 13, 2023

Tuco said:
For me I don't think it needs everything, but a game that has everything, especially with optional components, is ideal. A big budget narrative and world-building makes the trading/base building simulation more enjoyable, but I just haven't been able to get into ED, X4/X4 etc.

It's crazy that 24 years after its release, Freelancer is still literally the best story-driven space-combat sim. I think part of that is driven by Star Citizen sucking up all $$$ for a Freelancer 2 over the last decade and Elite Dangerous, X4 and other games focusing on the space trucker experience.

I think everspace 2 might be a decent stand in, but havnt had time to dive into it too really tell

Caliane · Jun 13, 2023

Sludig said:
I think everspace 2 might be a decent stand in, but havnt had time to dive into it too really tell

its on gamepass. I got bored with it very quick. ships and weapons all too similar. it tried to make some ship bombers, etc. but eh. the on rails nature of the missions. meh. got repetitive quick. Lack of enemy variation was a major issue as well.

tuco, you play Empyrion? ship combat in that is ok, but the real aspect is the ship building. you can make prefabs, but you can also make your own ships piece by piece. having to manage weight distribution, thrust in all directions, armor plating, etc. from fighters to full on capital ships. so, not just fighting, but taking your own ship designs into battle.

Burns · Jun 13, 2023

Tuco said:
For me I don't think it needs everything, but a game that has everything, especially with optional components, is ideal. A big budget narrative and world-building makes the trading/base building simulation more enjoyable, but I just haven't been able to get into ED, X4/X4 etc.

It's crazy that 24 years after its release, Freelancer is still literally the best story-driven space-combat sim. I think part of that is driven by Star Citizen sucking up all $$$ for a Freelancer 2 over the last decade and Elite Dangerous, X4 and other games focusing on the space trucker experience.

X3:TC with the Litcube's Universe mod is still the superior game to X4, but they are all hard to get into, as there is zero hand holding and you need to read guides just to figure out where to start.

I have not played Everspace 2, but I could dig an more arcade like space combat. I thought Starpoint Gemini 2 and Rebel Galaxy were good, on the arcade side. Unfortunately, I guess Rebel Galaxy's battleships in space was not that successful though, because their next game was completely different.

Tuco · Jun 13, 2023

Caliane said:
its on gamepass. I got bored with it very quick. ships and weapons all too similar. it tried to make some ship bombers, etc. but eh. the on rails nature of the missions. meh. got repetitive quick. Lack of enemy variation was a major issue as well.

tuco, you play Empyrion? ship combat in that is ok, but the real aspect is the ship building. you can make prefabs, but you can also make your own ships piece by piece. having to manage weight distribution, thrust in all directions, armor plating, etc. from fighters to full on capital ships. so, not just fighting, but taking your own ship designs into battle.

I've never heard of Empyrion or Everspace 2. They might be cool but at this point I'm definitely going to hold on to whatever desire I have saved up for playing a space combat sim for Starfield.

Caliane · Jun 13, 2023

everspace 2 is on gamepass for anyone that wants to try it out. its more like Rebel galaxy if you've played that. but with more sticking to fighters, not broad side capitals like Rebel galaxy gets up to.

I did actually really enjoy Rebel galaxy, but never played its sequel/prequel, Rebel Galaxy outlaw.
I think I got Rebel galaxy free on Epic.

empyrion is arc/conan in space. multiplayer (or solo) survival sandbox, with base and ship building. proc gen universe, with prefab points of interest.
very very indie. constant updates.

Cybsled · Jun 13, 2023

I haven’t played empyrean in years, but it was cool. Home brewing a ship can be tough at first, but community on steam has lots of prefabs you can add to the game. I’d recommend getting a no frills ship and reverse engineer it to figure out how they made it

Void · Jun 13, 2023

Am I the only one that wants a modern graphics version of Wing Commander??

I literally bought a flight/joystick for my PC for those games. And then another one when I broke that one from trying to steer too hard. That was some of the most non-RPG fun I've ever had in a game, and not a single space combat game has made me feel anywhere close to that ever since. I don't care one bit that it wasn't realistic space combat, realistic space combat fucking sucks.

Hell, I'd even go watch another shitty WC movie if it got them to make a new game. I actually took a date to the first one, hah! Yes, it went as badly as you'd think.

Mist · Jun 13, 2023

Void said:
Am I the only one that wants a modern graphics version of Wing Commander??

I literally bought a flight/joystick for my PC for those games. And then another one when I broke that one from trying to steer too hard. That was some of the most non-RPG fun I've ever had in a game, and not a single space combat game has made me feel anywhere close to that ever since. I don't care one bit that it wasn't realistic space combat, realistic space combat fucking sucks.

Hell, I'd even go watch another shitty WC movie if it got them to make a new game. I actually took a date to the first one, hah! Yes, it went as badly as you'd think.

Star Wars Squadrons wasn't good enough?

Caliane · Jun 13, 2023

Void said:
Am I the only one that wants a modern graphics version of Wing Commander??

I literally bought a flight/joystick for my PC for those games. And then another one when I broke that one from trying to steer too hard. That was some of the most non-RPG fun I've ever had in a game, and not a single space combat game has made me feel anywhere close to that ever since. I don't care one bit that it wasn't realistic space combat, realistic space combat fucking sucks.

Hell, I'd even go watch another shitty WC movie if it got them to make a new game. I actually took a date to the first one, hah! Yes, it went as badly as you'd think.

i mean, have you played chorus, everspace, star citizen? everspace is basically privateer.

you play house of the dying sun?
didnt play this one personally. I watched a stream. this has one of the best final missions of any game ever. not going to to spoil it. but haha. holy shit.

Urlithani · Jun 13, 2023

Void said:
Am I the only one that wants a modern graphics version of Wing Commander??

I literally bought a flight/joystick for my PC for those games. And then another one when I broke that one from trying to steer too hard. That was some of the most non-RPG fun I've ever had in a game, and not a single space combat game has made me feel anywhere close to that ever since. I don't care one bit that it wasn't realistic space combat, realistic space combat fucking sucks.

Hell, I'd even go watch another shitty WC movie if it got them to make a new game. I actually took a date to the first one, hah! Yes, it went as badly as you'd think.

Freespace 2 was made open source by the developers back when it was released in 1998. It actually has a sizeable modded community with a bunch of graphics upgrades, custom ships, custom campaigns etc.

This is just a showcase video but it looks pretty good.

Even if you don't want the modded stuff, the updated graphics mod for the original game campaign is great. It's still one of my top games of the genre after all this time.

Hard Light Productions

Kajiimagi · Jun 13, 2023

Mist said:
Star Wars Squadrons wasn't good enough?

star wars squadrons with a quest 2 VR headset is the tits!

TheNozz · Jun 13, 2023

Caliane said:
space is big and empty. is always a hurdle to be covered. you just can't have the "head off in one direction and come across emergent gameplay" of a skyrim, etc.

I dont think most people realize just how empty space is

You go into the asteroid belt and land on an asteroid? chances are if you look around, you will not be able to see another one with the naked eye.

and I forget the exact detail, but its something like "if you shrunk the Solar System down to the head of a pin, the next closest star system is a mile away"

it make my head explode thinking about it

Talos · Jun 13, 2023

TheNozz said:
I dont think most people realize just how empty space is

You go into the asteroid belt and land on an asteroid? chances are if you look around, you will not be able to see another one with the naked eye.

and I forget the exact detail, but its something like "if you shrunk the Solar System down to the head of a pin, the next closest star system is a mile away"

it make my head explode thinking about it

All that space could still not contain all of Todd Howard's lies.

Sludig · Jun 13, 2023

Caliane said:
everspace 2 is on gamepass for anyone that wants to try it out. its more like Rebel galaxy if you've played that. but with more sticking to fighters, not broad side capitals like Rebel galaxy gets up to.

I did actually really enjoy Rebel galaxy, but never played its sequel/prequel, Rebel Galaxy outlaw.
I think I got Rebel galaxy free on Epic.

empyrion is arc/conan in space. multiplayer (or solo) survival sandbox, with base and ship building. proc gen universe, with prefab points of interest.
very very indie. constant updates.

Funny, I didnt get deep but seemed to recall hating it, got in a spat with a dev even, or maybe it was too quickly too generic.

Dying sun looks good though

Starfield - Fallout fallout that isn't ES6

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