Student Loans and the SAVE plan

Mist

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This is absolutely true and its one of the top 3 problems with the modern educational system.

It will also never change. Try telling any business it needs to sell its product to fewer people next year, and even fewer the year after that.
If people stop enrolling in shitty colleges, they will close. Colleges are actually closing at a relatively high rate right now.

The large state universities will always be around, but they should be. They're institutions for a reason, that serve multiple (often competing) functions. States should focus more on raising the quality of instruction at these schools, rather than solely on attracting researchers.

States should also develop cohesive strategies to funnel students that need remediation from inadequate high school education into community colleges first.
 

Aldarion

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I dont disagree with you in this case about what should be. I'm just pointing out the compelling interest of the universities themselves.

You didnt address my point, that all businesses want to sell more and more of their product each year. Universities are no different and I don't see how they can be any different without "solutions" that cause more problems than they solve.

If we want to fix this it should come through social pressure, a changing culture, where we don't tell all kids they need to go to college. But of course like many problems this one may also not have a viable solution.
 

Kaines

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States should also develop cohesive strategies to funnel students that need remediation from inadequate high school education into community colleges first.
What is wrong with you? Liberals have told us for DECADES that more minorities from shitty high schools need to displace whites in higher education!!
 

Fucker

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It gets to my final point: Because too many people go to college, the whole experience has been dumbed down for a lower common denominator. If more people just went to community college and work FIRST, before going to a four-year school, that would change.
Wrong again. Colleges are trash because schools are dumping out uneducated people, not because there are too fucking many people going to college.

Your average college student is less educated than a 9th grader was in the early 1900's, and cannot pass an end of term exam given to same. That is 7 years of wasted time and resources to achieve a worse result. Colleges are shit because they are working with essentially uneducated people.

If you look at K-12 schools, only 20% of them can produce a barely passing grade of 70% proficiency or better. The numbers get worse from there; the majority of schools hover in the 40-50% proficiency range. Keep in mind these kids aren't passing even the simplest of course work, which makes these failures all the more wildly alarming.

This cannot be fixed by throwing money at it. The best schools have the lowest spend per student, the worst have the most spend per student. The problem arises at home. Parents have no expectations of their children at all. No homework, dead easy schools. No summer school programs, no summer reading lists. The single greatest factor that determines a student's academic success is parental involvement, and students are failing because their parents don't give a shit.

You can't fix this at the college level, and not with grand schemes of making kids go to community college first or whatever dumb idea you have rolling around in that pin head of yours.

If you want a quick fix, defund public schools. People would care about the quality of their child's education if they actually had to pay for it. Well, maybe not, but at least I wouldn't be getting stuck footing the bill to have someone's crotch zombie spend 12 years getting baby sat instead of educated.
 
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Captain Suave

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Your average college student is less educated than a 9th grader was in the early 1900's, and cannot pass an end of term exam given to same.

Let's see how an early 1900's ninth grader does on post-WWII history. Checkmate.

The single greatest factor that determines a student's academic success is parental involvement, and students are failing because their parents don't give a shit.

Morgan Freeman Reaction GIF by MOODMAN


And it's a weirdly pervasive attitude, too. I see plenty of upper class kids struggling in school whose parents just throw after school and tutoring programs at them instead of getting personally invested. This just takes away autonomy and accountability from the kid and teaches them to coast through their oversubscribed lives, eventually producing uncurious, apathetic adults with college degrees.
 

Cad

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Your average college student is less educated than a 9th grader was in the early 1900's, and cannot pass an end of term exam given to same.
I hear this idea thrown around all the time. Evidence?
 

Cad

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Where is Bullitt county? What was the average score on this exam? What age were the kids when they were in eighth grade in whatever school this is?
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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I got approved for my SAVE loan repayment plan. My payment due is zero dollars. This counts as a payment being made and no interest is being acrued while I continue to faithfully make my zero dollar payments.

Lol, it's stupid I wholeheartedly agree. But at least I'm getting something back for all those years of paying taxes.
 
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Control

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Where is Bullitt county? What was the average score on this exam? What age were the kids when they were in eighth grade in whatever school this is?
Do you think this seems super out of line for an 8th grade test? Most of those sound like reasonable questions for what I remember of middle school in the 80s. That half of current college students couldn't pass it also sounds pretty reasonable. (Also, to be fair, I would have scored better on my 8th grade tests in 8th grade than I would now.)
 
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Palum

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Where is Bullitt county? What was the average score on this exam? What age were the kids when they were in eighth grade in whatever school this is?
Rural Kentucky for farmers mostly. Had to score high to win a scholarship for high school.

So presume anyone attending 9th grade is a working farmhand and also aced that test.

Do you believe that your average college student could accomplish a test of similar contemporary topics without multiple choice?

I don't think anyone not in an English degree could even answer that section, much less a "business major" say, describe the events of the Battle of the Ardennes.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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As someone just under ten years removed from teaching college freshman, let me say you can't comprehend how uneducated they are. I'm not saying stupid, I'm saying uneducated. They learned close to zero in high school.

One class I taught was called Issues in American Politics. Each assignment you would read two sides of an issue with each opinion written by someone famous and knowledgeable (like Scalia/Breyer on the 2nd amendment). It wasn't complex writing like legal documents, but stuff from speeches they gave and the like. The student had to read both and decide who gave the more compelling argument and then defend their position with 4-5 paragraphs.

You honestly wouldn't believe the shit that got turned in. No idea what a paragraph was. Little to no punctuation. Grammar was atrocious. Spelling errors constantly. Word choice was always the most simplistic and basic of vocabulary. Some would just copy/paste paragraphs straight from the assigned text.

And yes, they were supposed to use MS Word so the fact it was filled with spelling and punctuation errors was even more ludicrous. Welcome to the future leaders of the world.
 
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Cad

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Do you think this seems super out of line for an 8th grade test? Most of those sound like reasonable questions for what I remember of middle school in the 80s. That half of current college students couldn't pass it also sounds pretty reasonable. (Also, to be fair, I would have scored better on my 8th grade tests in 8th grade than I would now.)
It doesn't seem that hard in general, it's just the open-ended nature of the questions is very different than how we do it now. This test would be a nightmare to score fairly and equally.

It also more difficult than a multiple-choice test over the same topics because of the open-ended nature. But if most students didn't get perfect scores (what are perfect scores anyway because you could have an encyclopedia entry for each answer) then what on average did they know from that test so we could compare to modern kids?

If you want me to agree modern "inner city" kids aren't educated then sure I agree and never would say anything differently. If you want to compare our smart people to the smart people of 1920 I think we are way fucking smarter and it's not even close.
 
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Furry

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Anyone who plays chess is very familiar with the progression of knowledge. Go back in time, and the best players in the world are dramatically worse than modern players. Infact, go back a couple hundred years and the world's best would only be competitive with new york street players. They'd get absolutely steamrolled in any real competition. It's not because they were any less intelligent or capable.

Knowledge has a way of compounding. And smart people can absorb the best of it. Underestimating this fact is just naivety.
 
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Captain Suave

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As someone just under ten years removed from teaching college freshman, let me say you can't comprehend how uneducated they are. I'm not saying stupid, I'm saying uneducated. They learned close to zero in high school.

One class I taught was called Issues in American Politics. Each assignment you would read two sides of an issue with each opinion written by someone famous and knowledgeable (like Scalia/Breyer on the 2nd amendment). It wasn't complex writing like legal documents, but stuff from speeches they gave and the like. The student had to read both and decide who gave the more compelling argument and then defend their position with 4-5 paragraphs.

You honestly wouldn't believe the shit that got turned in. No idea what a paragraph was. Little to no punctuation. Grammar was atrocious. Spelling errors constantly. Word choice was always the most simplistic and basic of vocabulary. Some would just copy/paste paragraphs straight from the assigned text.

And yes, they were supposed to use MS Word so the fact it was filled with spelling and punctuation errors was even more ludicrous. Welcome to the future leaders of the world.
My dad taught a graduate business program at U. Nebraska for a while. He had students he was 99% sure that they couldn't read, and were either failed upwards or cheated their entire educational career.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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My dad taught a graduate business program at U. Nebraska for a while. He had students he was 99% sure that they couldn't read, and were either failed upwards or cheated their entire educational career.
The absolute worst part for me was I was a graduate teaching assistant and thus worked under a tenured professor. He didn't like the complaints and threats of bad course reviews he would get because I was "too tough of a grader" so at the end of the semester he would just pass everyone I failed with a C. Welcome to academia.
 

Control

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It doesn't seem that hard in general, it's just the open-ended nature of the questions is very different than how we do it now. This test would be a nightmare to score fairly and equally.

It also more difficult than a multiple-choice test over the same topics because of the open-ended nature. But if most students didn't get perfect scores (what are perfect scores anyway because you could have an encyclopedia entry for each answer) then what on average did they know from that test so we could compare to modern kids?

If you want me to agree modern "inner city" kids aren't educated then sure I agree and never would say anything differently. If you want to compare our smart people to the smart people of 1920 I think we are way fucking smarter and it's not even close.
Anyone who plays chess is very familiar with the progression of knowledge. Go back in time, and the best players in the world are dramatically worse than modern players. Infact, go back a couple hundred years and the world's best would only be competitive with new york street players. They'd get absolutely steamrolled in any real competition. It's not because they were any less intelligent or capable.

Knowledge has a way of compounding. And smart people can absorb the best of it. Underestimating this fact is just naivety.
I don't think anyone would argue that the smartest students aren't smarter now. But the average student? WAY fucking worse. The entire crux of this is that it's comparing the smart kids of 1900 with the average kid of today.

1703000905238.png

While currently:
1703000986684.png


And then this probably doesn't help the averages:
1703001230799.png
 

Captain Suave

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I don't think anyone would argue that the smartest students aren't smarter now. But the average student? WAY fucking worse. The entire crux of this is that it's comparing the smart kids of 1900 with the average kid of today.

View attachment 504893
While currently:
View attachment 504895

I'm not sure that data says what you think it says. In 1900, 89% of children didn't go to high school and less than 11% graduated.

My and Sanrith's anecdotes notwithstanding, the bias here which we don't have information to sort out is that circa 1900 the average kid wasn't educated AT ALL. While the average STUDENT from that period might or might not be able to outperform the current average student, the average child/teen almost certainly wouldn't.

1703001623436.png


(This data obviously ends in the 80's but the downward trend continues to this day.)