The Big Bad Console Thread - Sway your Station with an Xboner !

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
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If that's the way they go with used games then I think the XB1 used games market is going to be virtually non-existent. Game publishers might be thinking along the same lines as the recording industry with the assumption that if you block access to cheap material people will fork out the cash for the full price version, whereas the reality is they simply won't buy it at all. That might seem to be no loss to a company that presently gets no cut out of the used games market, but it means there's going to be fewer people to buy all the DLC and microtransactions as well.

IMO if they wanted to go down this "pay to activate" route then a smarter solution would be to make it part of the Gold subscriber fee, so on a Gold account you can do pretty much what you like with used games. On paper there's probably less money to be made that way, but I think (and frankly I hope) the way they are going they are in for a nasty shock in terms of sales figures.
 

Chanur

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We need a complete picture of this process since it's obviously more subtle and complex than initially thought. A mechanism to ensure publishers get a cut of used game sales is certainly something that I can agree on, but if it means I can't lend and borrow nor sell directly to another gamer, it's a problem.
Certainly. Be sure to give Ford a cut of your resale of their car also when you get a new one. To be more clear I do not buy used games its not worth the 5 dollar savings to me. I also buy a lot of steam. That said what makes the game industry so special they get the right to a cut of your used media sales and no other industry. Does Panasonic get a cut if I sell my TV? How about Iron Maiden if I was dumb enough to resell a CD. No fuck that shit.
 

Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
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Sony has already said it allows used games, not sure what is so up in the air about that. If the publisher allows used games is another question, but it is the right strategy to take, make the publisher be the bad guy.

Also, with MS killing off arcade, aren't all those 360 purchases useless now? Not a great move when going Sony's route of using the cloud for backwards comparability would have let them keep their hooks in people.
Why do people keep saying that Sony has already said they allow used games? Go back and read the interviews, there is a lot of PR speak and talking in circles. The only concrete thing was that the hardware would not block it across the board and it was a publishers decision. And they haven't exactly come out the last few days to save the day.

I truly hope I'm wrong, but I think there is going to be something in place on both systems. /sadface
 

mkopec

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Yeah it really seems like they are trying to be greedy as fuck. The used game market has been around since fucking Atari 2600 and they want to all of a sudden change the scope now? They can go eat a dick. Fuck microsoft Fuck their cloud, and fuck all the greedy ass publishers. I guess the billions they make per year is not enough.
 

Lenaldo

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The xbone is clearly a move to satisfy the big developers. I'm shocked the next generation of consoles isn't going to allow heavy indie development. With these things being glorified PCs I don't understand why that wasn't a big focus in the revenue planning
 

Sean_sl

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The xbone is clearly a move to satisfy the big developers. I'm shocked the next generation of consoles isn't going to allow heavy indie development. With these things being glorified PCs I don't understand why that wasn't a big focus in the revenue planning
Er, I assume you are only referring to Microsoft. Sony has been making a huge push in courting Indie Developers and has made huge strides in making things better and easier for them and Sony has been getting a ton of praise from them for it.
 
Video games are sold as a software license and as such they have every right to make it a non-transferrable license if they so wish. The only thing that makes it a legal grey area is that they can't restrict ownership and resale of physical media. But in other realms of software licensing, possession of physical media doesn't give the consumer any resale rights whatsoever to use the actual software.

I believe there has been a recent decision in Germany- and I don't know if it is going to affect the entire E.U., where publishers must allow the resale of software and digital media such as games. So how will they operate in Europe? I believe it will only be a matter of time before such consumer rights makes it over to the United States.

But until then we will simply vote with our wallets. Which means 95% of gamers won't care enough to stop them from buying the system so they can play Halo with their friends. And MS knows that.
 

Foggy

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Video games are sold as a software license and as such they have every right to make it a non-transferrable license if they so wish. The only thing that makes it a legal grey area is that they can't restrict ownership and resale of physical media. But in other realms of software licensing, possession of physical media doesn't give the consumer any resale rights whatsoever to use the actual software.

I believe there has been a recent decision in Germany- and I don't know if it is going to affect the entire E.U., where publishers must allow the resale of software and digital media such as games. So how will they operate in Europe? I believe it will only be a matter of time before such consumer rights makes it over to the United States.

But until then we will simply vote with our wallets. Which means 95% of gamers won't care enough to stop them from buying the system so they can play Halo with their friends. And MS knows that.
I don't think anybody is disputing MS's legal right to do what they are doing. People are disputing whether they should do it, which is an unanimous no.
 
The xbone is clearly a move to satisfy the big developers. I'm shocked the next generation of consoles isn't going to allow heavy indie development. With these things being glorified PCs I don't understand why that wasn't a big focus in the revenue planning
Microsoft is taking the Big Brother approach to doing business. They always have, really, unless the market (or governments) have forced them to be more friendly. Coercion, anti-consumer strong-arming, tight rigid control over the market using monopolistic tactics, etc is the model and they're simply ramping that up significantly with a new closed ecosystem. Under this model, which is far more monopolistic than free enterprise, small business and indie partners are not as profitable as a few larger corporations in your oligopoly.

Now Sony has certainly operated the same way in the past, but they have been forced to take another strategy due to all of the business troubles and economic losses they have experienced the last few years. They're going with the traditional free-enterprise approach where you court your customers and business partners with positive incentives. In this model, small business, the consumer, and indies are your friend.
 
I don't think anybody is disputing MS's legal right to do what they are doing. People are disputing whether they should do it, which is an unanimous no.
Fair enough, especially on this board. But your average Joe on the street is going to get pretty incensed thinking they have the right to resale their games and not understanding why they freely can't.
 

Szlia

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Certainly. Be sure to give Ford a cut of your resale of their car also when you get a new one. [... W]hat makes the game industry so special they get the right to a cut of your used media sales and no other industry. Does Panasonic get a cut if I sell my TV? How about Iron Maiden if I was dumb enough to resell a CD. No fuck that shit.
I understand your sentiment, but I think some things should be clarified. A car or a TV are objects that wear down when used. There is a huge market for used car, but for all intents and purposes, a used car is not the same product as a new car. With cultural products, especially of the digital kind, this is not the case. Unless you have a box fetish (or unusual tear and wear), a used game/DVD/CD is identical to a new game/DVD/CD. It's a little less true with a book that is a physical object that gets carried around and manipulated.

Furthermore, what is so special with the game industry is that not only is the 2nd hand market extremely prevalent, but retail outlets that specialize in video games are also the ones that sell the second hand games. Worse: specialized outlets focus on 2nd hand, because it's where their money is.

This exceptional retail situation (in some countries - Japan comes to mind - books also have a big 2nd hand culture, but to my knowledge new and 2nd hand are sold by different retailers) is caused by a number of factors (games considered too expensive, games being short enough that they can enter the 2nd hand market when demand is still high for the title, hit oriented industry, too small a margin for retailers on new titles, etc) all tied in a pretty tight Gordian knot (cheaper games -> shorter games, bigger margin -> costlier games, etc). This exceptional situation legitimizes the claim of the devs and publishers on a cut of the proceeds of professional 2nd hand sellers. Ideally though, everybody would like an unexceptional, healthy, retail situation, but untying a Gordian knot is no small feat.

A total dematerialization of the software side of the industry (Steam) is a potent solution, but, like Alexander's sword, it cuts through the knot, it does not untie it. We get cheaper prices and devs/publishers get a cut on every single sales, but at the cost of thousands of retail jobs - creating jobs elsewhere in the economy though - no second hand market, no lending/borrowing and a dubious longevity for the products (I can play today games I bought in the '80s, will it be the same in 30 years for games I buy today on Steam?). Not to mention how unhealthy it is to basically have a middle man with an almost monopoly on retail (or one by platform would Sony and Microsoft have used this solution).

Microsoft's latest bandaid (not a true solution as it does not fix retail, it merely tries to make it less skewed through additional complexity) pleases them and the publishers/devs because $$, while still keeping the physical products which pleases retailers (they live another day!) and consumers (who, legitimately, like to own things they can hold in their hands). That being said, if because of this system physical copies cannot be lent/borrowed nor sold directly and if games require a full install AND an online handshake, giving them dubious longevity, the benefits of physical products for consumers are basically nonexistent.

That's why I said: 1) Publishers and devs claim is legitimate. 2) We need to know more.
 

Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
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Good posy Szila,

I honestly think we are going to see a contraction in the gaming market this gen. There are so many more choices for choices for electronic entertainment today than just TV or Gaming. It seems Sony and Microsoft are barely even offering competing products. It seems they are targeted completely different audiences. And this may be the best approach. If the market really does contract, is there going to be room for another generation of "HD twins"? 2 products that for all intents and purposes are identical?

MS is going for an iOS type ecosystem for Windows/Xbox. I think we are going to see a dramatic increase in full blown Win8 tablets in the next few months/years and their whole product lineup is going to be connected to each other to deliver a complete entertainment solution. From mobile gaming, console gaming, entertainment, apps, movies/music and wtfever else. Their endgame is finally started to be realized and i think it could be pretty cool. Or it could turn into a heaping pile of shit that no one wants. Guess we have to wait and see.

Sony is going for a hardcore gaming machine. With indie support and more "core" (whatever that means anymore) titles in mind. The majority of the gaming crowd that posts on forums seem to hate Call of Duty and Madden these days, or any other "safe" big budget AAA title. It seems that Sony may be targeting the Dark Souls crowd and not the CoD crowd. Horrible over-generalizations i know, but i think it makes my point.

I think this is going to be a really interesting generation. And honestly may be better in the long run for everyone. Microsoft can have the "casual" crowd that loves their COD and Fifa/Madden, and Sony can have the people that want broader game experiences.

Cant wait til E3!
 

Kreugen

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If it's true that MS's 300,000 servers means all games can use them to host instead of making the players do it, then the xbone has won. Every COD player is jizzing all over themselves thinking they won't have to put up with stupid fucking player hosted matches. Any fans of fps or fighting games or practically anything where line quality matters absolutely hates client-hosted crapfests. That's why Quake 1 popularized the client/server architecture in 1996 and why pc gamers turn their nose up at consoles.

Granted, a game posting profits as retarded as COD should have dedicated servers provided from the publisher to begin with. Battlefield has both official and third party dedicated servers. But Activision = greedy fucks who don't give a shit because they sell a billion copies as the game is now, so why spend money to improve the experience? Those shitheads even tried to make PC gamers play that way, when prior games allowed third parties to host dedicated servers. He didn't like that though, because those third parties made money doing it. Never mind that it actually IMPROVED HIS GAME and COST HIM NOTHING. Instead, fuck you, you have to host it yourself. And then for BO2 PC he graciously gave us one server farm in NJ for the entire continent to use, which for some is an even worse solution. ("See, you asked for a server and we gave you one and it sucks, so we were right!")

What we don't know though is if MS will be charging publishers to use its servers to host their games. If so, I could see a shitbag like Kotick sticking with client hosted dogcrap.
 

Xexx

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If it's true that MS's 300,000 servers means all games can use them to host instead of making the players do it, then the xbone has won. Every COD player is jizzing all over themselves thinking they won't have to put up with stupid fucking player hosted matches. Any fans of fps or fighting games or practically anything where line quality matters absolutely hates client-hosted crapfests. That's why Quake 1 popularized the client/server architecture in 1996 and why pc gamers turn their nose up at consoles.
Need E3 to roll up double o pronto so we can figure out if CoD will finally stop being 8v8 with this new tech and IN THE CLOUDDDDDD COMPUTING!!!!!(you need to use an announcer voice now when thinking of the cloud). I really dont want another 8v8 CoD game, and if they do BF4 on consoles i'd hope they can muster up big 48/48 game modes.
 

Kreugen

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It does seem odd that Wired is the only one that is reporting this though. Although I don't see why the hell else they would need such a huge network for the things they did talk about at the presentation, like fantasy football and looking up sports scores.
 

Xexx

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TBH i think the fantasy football integration in XB1 is pretty tight. Seeing your place shift during the game etc is a neat addition for those who are interested in that shit. Honestly alot of the non game features are ok, but for every good thing they add, they are fucking up in spades on other things.
 

Flesseck

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Fucking ridiculous. What really grinds my gears is: 1) No XBLA transfer, and 2) No backwards-compatibility.

I think the XBLA is potentially worse because there could be a lot of shit tied to your account that one day may go away due to them ceasing X360 servers or taking it down all together a la the first Xbox treatment.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
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don't know if this has been posted:

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publi...retail/0116137

This is how we've been told it will all work:

A gamer walks into a retailer and hands over the game they wish to sell. This will only be possible at retailers who have agreed to Microsoft's T&Cs and more importantly integrated Microsoft's cloud-based Azure pre-owned system into its own.

The game is then registered as having been traded-in on Microsoft's system. The consumer who handed it over will subsequently see the game wiped from their account - hence the until now ambiguous claim from Phil Harrison that the Xbox One would have to 'check in' to Microsoft's servers every 24 hours.

The retailer can then sell the pre-owned game at whatever price they like, although as part of the system the publisher of the title in question will automatically receive a percentage cut of the sale. As will Microsoft. The retailer will pocket the rest.

Unconfirmed reports on ConsoleDeals.co.uk suggest that retail's slice will be as little as ten per cent. That's a significant cut from what it has become accustomed to from pre-owned sales and more in line with what they would receive from the sale of a new game - hence, the value of the pre-owned market to the retailer is effectively destroyed.

These same unconfirmed reports also suggest that the activation cost for consumers buying or borrowing pre-owned software will be ?35.
 

Vaclav

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Why do people keep saying that Sony has already said they allow used games? Go back and read the interviews, there is a lot of PR speak and talking in circles. The only concrete thing was that the hardware would not block it across the board and it was a publishers decision. And they haven't exactly come out the last few days to save the day.

I truly hope I'm wrong, but I think there is going to be something in place on both systems. /sadface
Not on the system side means it's down to stuff like Online Gamepass type stuff and internet activation (and they've stated that internet won't be required for a check-in - perhaps it would be for initial activation under their statements but nothing past that).

And since it's per publisher, consumers can tell the publishers that do it to screw off with it and support other PS4 companies - no such option with X-1 since it's across the board.

Or more simply - its pretty obvious to most of us that PS4's version will be close to how this generation did it.