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Arden

Trakanon Raider
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I've played both. Pathfinder has one good rule. If you hit by more than 10 over their AC it is considered a crit. Other than that, it is unnecessarily complex to get basically what you get in D and D 5e.
Interesting. As much as I appreciate 5e it isn't quite "crunchy" enough (for me). I find it kind of light on the tactical end. I fully understand that was a conscious decision by the designers to keep it simple/easy to understand, but I like a little more mechanical depth personally.

Anyway, I assumed Pathfinder 2 would be a little crunchier and have more tactical options.
 

Fyff

Blackwing Lair Raider
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If you want tactical options, there are plenty of miniatures games with great rules sets. I have yet to find an RPG that is worthy of calling tactical.
 

j00t

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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maybe i'm missing something, but i don't quite get how simple rules means something is less tactical, especially when the basic rules of 5e is that you can make whatever homebrew rule you want. i don't hate pathfinder, but i find that it's way less about adding tactics and way more about adding math.
 

Arden

Trakanon Raider
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maybe i'm missing something, but i don't quite get how simple rules means something is less tactical, especially when the basic rules of 5e is that you can make whatever homebrew rule you want. i don't hate pathfinder, but i find that it's way less about adding tactics and way more about adding math.

I'm sure you know the difference between a tactically heavy and tactically light game and why tactically heavy games generally require a more complex rule set.
 

Locnar

Trakanon Raider
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33d 5h 11m
If you want tactical options, there are plenty of miniatures games with great rules sets. I have yet to find an RPG that is worthy of calling tactical.

1st edition, made directly from table top miniature war gamers.
 

j00t

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I'm sure you know the difference between a tactically heavy and tactically light game and why tactically heavy games generally require a more complex rule set.
to be perfectly honest, the "tactical" games i've played haven't been on tabletop so my experience is limited. i mean there are certain complexities that make sense, flanking, high ground, stuff like that. but my example with pathfinder holds. more math doesn't automatically equate to more tactical gameplay. sometimes it's just more math.

when you say "tactically light" vs "tactically heavy" what specifically would you consider to be the defining differences?
 

Kriptini

Blackwing Lair Raider
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If anyone has played both PF2 and DnD5e, I'd love to hear an analysis/comparison.

I think PF2e is overall a richer and deeper experience. Your character's combat and out-of-combat abilities develop independently, so you don't have to to sacrifice one to be good at the other, but there's still enough variety amongst non-combat activities that will require players to cooperate and specialize in different things. You also don't have to choose between feats or ability boosts - you'll get both through the course of leveling up. Classes are much less set in stone in PF2e than they are in 5e - your feat selections can make your Rogue play completely different from another Rogue.

The balance of the game is very tight. In 1e you could endlessly stack modifiers to make yourself a god, but in 2e, modifiers have been condensed into three different categories that don't stack with themselves. Additionally, there are static modifiers tied to your level, which results in an extremely tight math system that keeps the game's difficulty consistent throughout the adventure. (I.e., an enemy that is your level +3 will always be significantly powerful no matter what your level is, whereas an enemy equal to your level -3 will always be trivial.)

From a roleplaying perspective, PF2e's system allows you to create much more creative characters without needing to homebrew. The core rulebook itself has thousands of character options, and they've all been meticulously balanced to the point where there aren't really any "trap" selections (unless you specifically pick something niche and non-applicable to your situation, like a desert resistance feat in a snow-themed campaign).

Pathfinder 2e is also a multiclasser's dream. In D&D, you have to "take" a level in another class when you level up, which stops you from gaining a level in your base class. This is not the case in PF2e. Instead, you just trade an optional feat in your class for an optional feat in another class (with some limitations).

Speaking of classes, D&D 5e was released in 2014 and has 12 base classes. Pathfinder 2e released last year and already has 16, with two more on the way. 5e has many different archetypes for each base class, but PF2e's more flexible system of archetyping has over 50 different ones to choose from (and any can be accessed by any base class through the multiclassing system, provided they can meet the prerequsiite). Two more base classes are being released next summer, with several new archetypes in addition.

But better than all of that is PF2e's simplified action system. In 5e, each turn you have a move, an action, and a bonus action, and you have to keep track of what's what. In PF2e, it's simplified to three "actions." Want to move twice and attack once? You can do that. Want to attack three times in one turn at first level? You can do that too (though there is a stacking multiple attack penalty for taking multiple attacks in a turn). Some spells different casting "modes" that cause them to do different things when you invest more actions into them. (The Heal spell is touch with one action, 30ft range with two actions, or 30ft burst with three actions, for example).

I've had fun with 5e, but it gets old. I like to take my time to develop and really get into a character I'm going to be playing in a campaign that runs months. PF2e lets me do that, so I quit 5e when PF2e launched and haven't looked back.
 

Aaron

<Bronze Donator>
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Speaking of Pathfinder, anyone have any experience with it's spinoff, Starfinder? Always been more "at home" with futuristic RPGs.

Anyway, what are peoples opinions on online vs in person RPGing? My group has always been "in person" but we took a spell this spring during our first wave where we were online, and then we've been playing online again during this second wave for just over a month. Now, I would rather play online than not at all, but I do have the feeling that it is less fun, and I get less out of it. Although that said, we are not quite 100% serious players, we like to spend a lot of time goofing off and making jokes, and that's something that just works much better in person than online.
 

j00t

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Speaking of Pathfinder, anyone have any experience with it's spinoff, Starfinder? Always been more "at home" with futuristic RPGs.

Anyway, what are peoples opinions on online vs in person RPGing? My group has always been "in person" but we took a spell this spring during our first wave where we were online, and then we've been playing online again during this second wave for just over a month. Now, I would rather play online than not at all, but I do have the feeling that it is less fun, and I get less out of it. Although that said, we are not quite 100% serious players, we like to spend a lot of time goofing off and making jokes, and that's something that just works much better in person than online.
i have basically the same opinion. the ease of playing online is preferable. i'm sitting in my own home, in my own comfy chair, in my own temperature regulation... if i'm cold, i can turn the heat up without making a fuss, if i'm hot i can just take my pants off lol.

but there's problems with online... there is a LOT of body language between players that you just miss. one of our biggest problems is overtalking. in real life someone can make an off-hand comment and it doesn't really interrupt much. online, there's only one sound channel and all the players are fighting over the same one. if one person overtalks it all comes through at once and no one can understand anything.

but it is what it is and if you have respectful players in that regard it's significantly less of an issue.
 
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Fyff

Blackwing Lair Raider
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1st edition, made directly from table top miniature war gamers.
What makes 1st more tactical? I would argue 5e is way more tactical as it was built with using miniatures in mind.

What is the love with 1st on this board? It is a horribly balanced pile of garbage. I get it, I played it for a decade but man does that game suck.
 
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Locnar

Trakanon Raider
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What makes 1st more tactical? I would argue 5e is way more tactical as it was built with using miniatures in mind.

What is the love with 1st on this board? It is a horribly balanced pile of garbage. I get it, I played it for a decade but man does that game suck.

1st edition = EQ tactics

5th edition = EQ2 -play piano on your keyboard hitting 10000x hotkeys randomly- "tactics" (with a no risk twist)
 

Arden

Trakanon Raider
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I think PF2e is overall a richer and deeper experience...

Great review- that's what I was looking for. And, honestly, that's what I expected based on the last time I checked in on the game when it was still in testing. 5e was never meant to have that level of depth. It's very clear they designed 5e to be a simple, streamlined system that's easy to learn and highly accessible to everyone, including the young/casual/first-time gamer crowd. In that regard I think 5e knocked it out of the park. But I think the market definitely has room for other kinds of of fantasy ttrpgs too- especially games that cater to older, more experienced players who want a little more depth and crunchiness. Sounds like PF2e fills that niche to an extent.
 
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Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
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Friend of mine is the same way as your seer, except with illusions. After a short campaign, the DM actually banned illusionists from his table so he could spend a bunch of time figuring out how to deal with them. The player was outright sidestepping all kinds of extremely difficult and we'll crafted encounters.

Hes a great DM so it's not an issue anymore... He even has that illusion wizard show up as an NPC dues ex machina every now and again to help us get out of unwinnable encounters.
My first ever character was a 1st edition Gnome Illusionist. He was a badass.

Illusions can kill if used with skill but fake healing is only a feeling.
 

Ome

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Anyway, what are peoples opinions on online vs in person RPGing?
I myself ain't a big fan of online play and prefer to play in person. To me the enjoyment of the game, and the company, far outweigh the "convenience" of online play.
 
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Fyff

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Roll 20s dynamic lighting is the greatest thing to ever happen to RPGs. That said, I would give it all up to be able to play in person every week. For me, rpgs are more about doing something with my friends than it is about the game. It's also much easier to do roleplaying while face to face.

I've been debating trying to find some tablet deals or something on black friday so when the pandemic settles down, we can get the best of both worlds.
 
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Arden

Trakanon Raider
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I've been debating trying to find some tablet deals or something on black friday so when the pandemic settles down, we can get the best of both worlds.
That's the future of ttrpgs imo. Everyone getting around a table face to face but with a laptop/tablet to access a shared digital battle map. Obviously some people will always prefer figurines and battle mats but imo the possibilities/benefits of a digital battle map and character tracker are too huge to ignore.
 
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j00t

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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my dnd group has about 20 player spread across 4 or 5 online groups. we're all playing in the same world and currently wrapped up in different facets of the same plot, anyway every now and again we'll all get together in person and just make a weekend of it. when we do that, some of us having paper character sheets, some of us have apps on our phones or tablets... but the DM will hook his pc up to a tv monitor and just put the maps or whatever pictures he wants to show us on the big screen tv. it helps keep everyone focused without too many people all just burried in their phones while in person
 
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