the ecological fallacy and identity politics

Leadsalad

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You just said strength didn't matter.

How about you stop being a SJW for one second and admit that you need to be a physically strong motherfucker to meet the basic physical requirements (which no woman will ever meet due to basic physiology)?
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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You just said strength didn't matter.

How about you stop being a SJW for one second and admit that you need to be a physically strong motherfucker to meet the basic physical requirements (which no woman will ever meet due to basic physiology)?
Good fucking thing I never said that you retard
 

Leadsalad

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To be a tard for the sake of being a tard, it is not strength that makes someone a seal and another not. It is determination and ability to ignore instincts and rudimentary urges.

What is this then? Are you going to goalpost move this to be "strength of mental fortitude" on me when it's clear as day you mean physical strength?

Edit: no, you can't even do that because you said strength doesn't matter so you clearly meant physical strength.

I don't understand how you think you can weasel your way out of this but I'm going to do my best Picard imitation reading your response.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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What is this then? Are you going to goalpost move this to be "strength of mental fortitude" on me when it's clear as day you mean physical strength?

Edit: no, you can't even do that because you said strength doesn't matter so you clearly meant physical strength.

I don't understand how you think you can weasel your way out of this but I'm going to do my best Picard imitation reading your response.
See you are still a retard. Strength doesn't make a special operator. The fact that you used "curl" is evidence of your ignorance.
 

Leadsalad

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You are mentally disabled, it's the only explanation.

Ok, so we'll get a 6 woman team of 110lb'ers to make it through BUDS then we can prove that it doesn't take physical strength. None of them are going to be able to pass the entry tests that explicitly require a high level of physical strength and stamina.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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You are mentally disabled, it's the only explanation.

Ok, so we'll get a 6 woman team of 110lb'ers to make it through BUDS then we can prove that it doesn't take physical strength. None of them are going to be able to pass the entry tests that explicitly require a high level of physical strength and stamina.
Retard. I said physical strength does not make a special operator. I did not say no physical strength is needed. Holy shit you are retarded
 
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Pasteton

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This fallacy happens all the time on these boards and most people seem totally blind to it. It's important to keep in mind that for most things, 1) individual variance is much greater than group differences, and 2) outliers tend to amplify the group variances even though the average individual is not impacted by this.

Example for one would be that as a group, black Americans tend to test lower on certain iq scores than Jewish Americans when controlling for socioeconomic status. However if you pick one black and one Jew at random from the population and pit them side by side , the actual chance the Jew is going to test higher is only a few percentage points; this is because the variability in the group , whether Jew or black, is much higher than the actual aggregate difference between the two groups as a whole. So while it is an accurate statement to say Jewish people test higher on iq scores than African Americans , and racists on this board will happily run with that, it is incorrect to infer there is a high likelihood that a Jew at random will be smarter than a black at random.

As far as point two, I think a few examples speak for themselves , i.e. Black NBA players or Jewish nobel prize winners are disproportionate to their respective populations by a large margin. However people in both these groups represent statistical outliers and don't have a major impact on the actual athletic or mental capacities of a given random individual in those respective groups.

Now obviously this principle doesn't apply to ALL characteristics ( like a random black is going to be blacker than a random Jew), but it does apply to most "controversial" qualities (intelligence, behavior, penis length etc).

Same with gender; some characteristics like upper body physical strength, will be unequivocally male dominant. While with others the individual variance is higher than the group difference (such as technical aptitude tho this is just my guess)
 
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Sentagur

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This fallacy happens all the time on these boards and most people seem totally blind to it. It's important to keep in mind that for most things, 1) individual variance is much greater than group differences, and 2) outliers tend to amplify the group variances even though the average individual is not impacted by this.

Example for one would be that as a group, black Americans tend to test lower on certain iq scores than Jewish Americans when controlling for socioeconomic status. However if you pick one black and one Jew at random from the population and pit them side by side , the actual chance the Jew is going to test higher is only a few percentage points; this is because the variability in the group , whether Jew or black, is much higher than the actual aggregate difference between the two groups as a whole. So while it is an accurate statement to say Jewish people test higher on iq scores than African Americans , and racists on this board will happily run with that, it is incorrect to infer there is a high likelihood that a Jew at random will be smarter than a black at random.

As far as point two, I think a few examples speak for themselves , i.e. Black NBA players or Jewish nobel prize winners are disproportionate to their respective populations by a large margin. However people in both these groups represent statistical outliers and don't have a major impact on the actual athletic or mental capacities of a given random individual in those respective groups.

Now obviously this principle doesn't apply to ALL characteristics ( like a random black is going to be blacker than a random Jew), but it does apply to most "controversial" qualities (intelligence, behavior, penis length etc).

Same with gender; some characteristics like upper body physical strength, will be unequivocally male dominant. While with others the individual variance is higher than the group difference (such as technical aptitude tho this is just my guess)

We are not talking about Median but average.
Given how the intelligence distribution on a bell curve is pretty much the same for both groups and the significant population differences between jews and African Americans the chances of you picking a random a a smart jew are much higher than picking a smart black person.
Those numbers get closer for your run of the mill white people and African Americans, while asians are somewhere in between.
 
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You just said strength didn't matter.

How about you stop being a SJW for one second and admit that you need to be a physically strong motherfucker to meet the basic physical requirements (which no woman will ever meet due to basic physiology)?


we have a winner!

Please everyone, do not help him. If he spots the fallacy he gets a win. Hint for poster: fallacy was in title of post.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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individual variance is much greater than group differences
This is a bullshit obfuscation of the argument. When dealing with population level decisions and policies, it's entirely meaningless to say shit like this. Blacks commit over half the murders in this country. If I use the fact that I could potentially pick a random white guy and a random black guy and the the white guy is a serial killer and the black guy works for a fortune 500 company to say that these crime statistics should have no influence on enforcement strategies, then I am a retard.

You have to be willfully ignorant to try and make these kind of arguments. You're basically trying to argue that the existence of outliers means statistics are useless.
 
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AngryGerbil

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This is a bullshit obfuscation of the argument. When dealing with population level decisions and policies, it's entirely meaningless to say shit like this. Blacks commit over half the murders in this country. If I use the fact that I could potentially pick a random white guy and a random black guy and the the white guy is a serial killer and the black guy works for a fortune 500 company to say that these crime statistics should have no influence on enforcement strategies, then I am a retard.

You have to be willfully ignorant to try and make these kind of arguments. You're basically trying to argue that the existence of outliers means statistics are useless.

Even at the population level, in politics, you have to treat everyone as an individual. It's the only civilized way to be. Anything else is 'social' justice.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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Even at the population level, in politics, you have to treat everyone as an individual. It's the only civilized way to be. Anything else is 'social' justice.
No this is silly and it simply isn't how institutions work. On an individual level, of course you assess everyone you personally meet and interact with by the merits of their own character. But everything can't be done on an individual level and attempting to disregard statistics and reality because actually applying them logically might not be "fair" is social justice.

I hope you realize that your dream of this individualized society where race/ethnicity don't matter is actually more ridiculous and impossible than my dream of the white ethnostate.
 
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AngryGerbil

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No this is silly and it simply isn't how institutions work. On an individual level, of course you assess everyone you personally meet and interact with by the merits of their own character. But everything can't be done on an individual level and attempting to disregard statistics and reality because actually applying them logically might not be "fair" is social justice.

I hope you realize that your dream of this individualized society where race/ethnicity don't matter is actually more ridiculous and impossible than my dream of the white ethnostate.

I'm living in it. Totalitarian memes are invading from Europe and the Middle East and true Americans are standing up to it with their unique brand of Objectivity and Individualism.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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I'm living in it. Totalitarian memes are invading from Europe and the Middle East and true Americans are standing up to it with their unique brand of Objectivity and Individualism.
Oh you're living in it alright. Here's what happens in "all laws apply equally and race doesn't matter society". All things being equal, certain races will naturally make up a larger portion of the upper classes while other races will naturally begin to form the majority of the underclasses. These underclass minorities will begin to notice this discrepancy and since race doesn't matter and we're all equal, the only explanation for the discrepancy is racism. These groups will naturally form together and begin to advocate for policies that advance the interests of their people.

Now all of a sudden, race DOES matter, but only for the underclasses. Since the upper classes eschew racial politics and can't really mount much of a counter argument because they believe all races are equal, policies start to be put in place to advantage the members of the underclass races. But these policies will never be able to make up for the natural discrepancies between the races so the advocacy never stops. Eventually this breeds resentment and racial enmity. The political scene becomes more and more polarized because now it's almost entirely based on intrinsic, intractable differences between the groups. Soon, violence enters the political scene and the nation seems like it's being torn apart at the seams.

Sound familiar?
 
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Lithose

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This fallacy happens all the time on these boards and most people seem totally blind to it. It's important to keep in mind that for most things, 1) individual variance is much greater than group differences, and 2) outliers tend to amplify the group variances even though the average individual is not impacted by this.

Example for one would be that as a group, black Americans tend to test lower on certain iq scores than Jewish Americans when controlling for socioeconomic status. However if you pick one black and one Jew at random from the population and pit them side by side , the actual chance the Jew is going to test higher is only a few percentage points; this is because the variability in the group , whether Jew or black, is much higher than the actual aggregate difference between the two groups as a whole. So while it is an accurate statement to say Jewish people test higher on iq scores than African Americans , and racists on this board will happily run with that, it is incorrect to infer there is a high likelihood that a Jew at random will be smarter than a black at random.

As far as point two, I think a few examples speak for themselves , i.e. Black NBA players or Jewish nobel prize winners are disproportionate to their respective populations by a large margin. However people in both these groups represent statistical outliers and don't have a major impact on the actual athletic or mental capacities of a given random individual in those respective groups.

Now obviously this principle doesn't apply to ALL characteristics ( like a random black is going to be blacker than a random Jew), but it does apply to most "controversial" qualities (intelligence, behavior, penis length etc).

Same with gender; some characteristics like upper body physical strength, will be unequivocally male dominant. While with others the individual variance is higher than the group difference (such as technical aptitude tho this is just my guess)

Arguing that group variance is higher is silly given the Pareto principle illustrates that the fringe has the greatest positive and negative effects on society.

We have empirical evidence of this in both crime and analysis of higher economic bands. About 5% of the addresses in a city will account for 60% of the crime. About 5% of the people account for 50% of the crime, and almost universally have outlier IQ (Wolfgang's study).

Meanwhile, the professionals in society, doctors, engineers, executives, researchers are heavily selected from the top 5% of the intelligence bands. In nearly every article arguing racial disparities, or gender disparities, leadership positions, or highly technical fields, these bands are cited.

These things require someone to rebut with IQ group analysis; because a small variance in mean can have a profound impact on the populations close to 2 SDs from it. This is more pronounced with gender given males have a higher standard.

std-dev-low-high.png


I don't think its hard to see how small shifts in the SD of a populations can have profound impacts on the populations closer to the fringes. The entire notion that "individuals within groups are more distinct than groups and thus groups are useless for analysis" is built off an aversion to the reality of the human condition--the productive few, and the destructive few, make most things work. Outliers I'd argue are more important for a society than the mean in many, many cases.
 
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AngryGerbil

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Pareto and Bell Curve as sociological phenomenon granted, that doesn't (imo) warrant a politcal theory that eschews individualism for groupism.
 

Sentagur

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Pareto and Bell Curve as sociological phenomenon granted, that doesn't (imo) warrant a politcal theory that eschews individualism for groupism.
Of course you should treat anyone as an individual but to reveal any kind of trends you need to look at the populations at large.
The problem is we need trends and generalizations to get through our day otherwise we would drown in information overload.
 
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