The Elder Scrolls Online

Utnayan_sl said:

Why the hell even play the thing?

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Because the actual RPG game part of it is fun?

Utnayan_sl said:

I want you to do me a favor. Log in, create a new character without handing that character anything from other alternates/mains you may have. Then, I want you to level to 80 using the crafting system without using the cash shop. Then, I want you to see how others use the cash shop and can level to 80 in a much faster period of time. * That * is why it is a broken system, when you can use the cash shop to level a character to 80. (Whether it means anything or not isn't the point)

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Actually, that IS the entire point. That point is lost on you because at this point you're just stark raving mad. If there's no point to leveling outside of getting to see and experience higher level content, then there's no reason NOT to experience and see said content. There isn't some magical level where everything gets AWESOME in GW2 -- unlike EQs raid game, or WoWs "end game" I would say GW2 just has a fun leveling experience all the way up, but I feel your negativity towards the game would prevent you from seeing that.

Just so you understand, if a person decides to bypass content by other means (be it crafting in GW2, or BGs in WoW) they only miss out on content, they are not gaining an advantage over others by doing so. If someone decides to pay the black market for a max leveled character in GW2, all they get is access to all the zones. If this is your idea of winning, then by all means, win away -- I'll level and enjoy myself without even needing to pay a cent, because when you buy your level 80, and I level my level 80, we'll both be exactly the same power. I'll of course be far more experienced at my class and all that, but does that really matter for PvE, where there's no raid game?

Pay 2 Win, is all about paying cash to be better than people that do not spend real money.

My opinion is that any pay to win system is going to be 1) Very subjective. 2) In my view, if you can level from an internal cash shop to bypass A) Player interactions. B) Earning in game currency to advance from min to max level cap in a fucking day. C) Bypass adventuring content -- it's the same damn thing as as a pay shop.

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I just love point 1, I find that hilarious. Point 2 on the other hand... the cash shop does NOT sell crafting materials. Yes, you can use the currency converter to purchase gold, and then use that gold on the AH to buy the goodies you need to level up your crafts. Which btw, is (A) interacting with other players by buying their merch from the AH. Please, don't go full retard and start saying that AHs are evil and we need face-to-face transactions in a tunnel or tree house for it to be a true interaction. (B) man, that's going to be a very long, boring and expensive day. more power to you if you have the stomach for that. and (C) grats, you've just spent real money to prevent you from spending time playing the game (entertainment) you paid for. Wait, wut?!

One of the sticking points with all of this goes back to the leveling aspects of EQ and how much fun we had while doing it, but come end game, there was very little to do outside of waiting around on shit to spawn to kill it for loots (until AAs came around). So WoW changed that, had a fun leveling experience and gave everyone a ton of shit to do at max level. The evil words "the game begins at 60" was originally heralded by trumpets and fanfare because we finally had a game that DIDN'T just focus on leveling. Somewhere, somehow those words have become tainted, and personally, while I think it's the instant gratification crowd that did that, I can't help but wonder if we just needed something else to bitch about once we were given what we asked for.

Would it help you if crafting didn't give XP at all? Then there would be no way to buy XP? All crafting materials bind on pickup? (there are already quite a few that are bind on account). Aren't those all things we hated with a passion?

TL R - ITT Utnayan goes full retard.

Utnayan_sl said:

It was fun because it was new. (Fresh coat of paint syndrome) Overhyped. And now it is just an abortion with 3 hands in the pockets of gamers under layered cash shop mechanics.

Cheers to Nexon.

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I like Dragon Nest =(

but you're right about their cash shop, I didn't really see it for what it was until I reached max level and hit a brick wall only my Visa could tear down

Utnayan_sl said:

... unless, of course, to remove the cash shop stigmathey just went ahead and removed anything of meaningas well so no one had anything to bitch about. It still doesn't make it any better ...

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That's what I am saying. There is nothing of meaning at the end of the leveling curve to chase after. Usually people continue doing the same thing they did before, doing map completions. Sabbat's post sums it up as well. They have legalized RMT, so obviously you can buy everything on the AH with your VISA, and you can speed up your xp gain with the available xp boosters. Most people just dont see how that is 'winning' in the specific case of GW2 because the game is the leveling (or more precisely experiencing the leveling content, love the downleveling system). Buying yourself a fresh 80 as your first step in the game (visa -> gold -> craft to 80) doesnt put you in the lead in our eyes, it makes you pay money to skip past things that you will then go and do. How retarded is it to create your human character, level it to 80 with the AH right at the start and then start doing Queensdale map completion?

And yea as was mentioned I was refering to EVE's legal RMT that even includes buying that 100mill skill point character right after installing the game.

Utnayan_sl said:

Oh shut it. There have been plenty of times I have said that. Knock it off.

I see where people are coming from. So basically what we can do to this genre is design a game which isn't supposed to have consequences and meaning in a persistent world, add a cash shop where you can level your characters off it but it means nothing because levels really don't mean anything either, place no carrots at the end of the stick, and have zero relevance in the game world. Hop in, fuck around, and log out. Your character means jack, your progress in the game means jack, your teams progress in WvW means jack, WvW as a whole is a zerg fest, accomplishment means absolutely nothing.

And is it a good game for that? I would agree. But I can get that shit on my iPad from about 56 million free to play apps and not even have to buy a box. I would hope that there are only a handful of games such as this that actually come out, because I would, and I know many others here would as well, get sick of a lack of effort into persistent worlds in the guise of stepping up casual garbage even further to make playing in a persistent world more irrelevant than what Guild Wars 2 is today.

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Yes that's GW2 in a nut shell. It's a well crafted world that was fun to play through once, even twice if you really enjoyed it. Once you hit 80 there really isn't anything to do unless you really love the game and want to do 100% completion. The game has no sub, so you can come back and do the updates as they release them. There is no progression or anything so your gear is probably going to be relevant forever.

You can buy gear on the AH or farm it for pennies and the really expensive shit is just slightly better. I think the gap between LFR epics and Normal epics in WOW is a larger gap. This is really the only game where the journey is the game. So if you want to spend $1000 in the AH to skip the leveling process and buy all the legendaries more power to you. You just funded Anet for the people who like to play. You also don't destroy anyone's sense of worth or hard work either. The only "hardcore" PVP in the game is seperated (spvp) and WvW is shitty anyway and it's so zerg based, your 4% increase in stats means nothing when it's 30v30 or whatever.

Draegan_sl said:

Yes that's GW2 in a nut shell. It's a well crafted world that was fun to play through once, even twice if you really enjoyed it. Once you hit 80 there really isn't anything to do unless you really love the game and want to do 100% completion. The game has no sub, so you can come back and do the updates as they release them. There is no progression or anything so your gear is probably going to be relevant forever... This is really the only game where the journey is the game.

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That's just it, really. I'm actively playing GW2 and I'm actually spending money on it from time to time too (no RNG boxes though, they can shove those). Because the combat is fun, and the exploring is oh so fun. They really did that right, even if nothing else. I doubt I would do double world completion, though, it is bound to get old at some point. But I havent finished that even once yet because I didnt hop on the grind train at release and took liberal breaks for months at a time when I didnt feel like playing. This game is perfect for that, but for better or worse that's all it is or wants to be, apparently. I certainly thought they want to be more but I'm not invested so I am not pissed at them either. Although I wish they had gone with a sub model because I believe we would have a very different, better game now at the 1 year mark if they had a sub.

This should seal the deal for you doubters:

Lame (that is the joke?...still lame). They need to hire whoever has the Old Spice account.

Utnayan_sl said:

Anyway, Creed's point being with a sub they have to give players a reason to keep subscribed and work a little harder at it. They also respond to issues faster. ArenaNet bombed on both.

With this, they can just throw shit on the cash shop and milk concurrent and hook back players. (Which, for the most part, is all they are doing while they work on their first expansion)

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Wrong again. You really need to pay attention the game you are trashing. They produce and release more content than any other mmo. I have given up trying to keep up with it there is so much. It's already been more than an expansions' worth if you played it all. And their bug fixes have been very timely, except for the very worst ones (culling etc). But major bugs are not easy to quash in any game.

AndANet is not producing an expansion. They are making so much money from box sales and the cash shop that they are going to continue their hectic monthly release schedule as is. Free for everyone as long as you bought the box. They have 4 teams that work on living story updates and a huge backlog of stuff now that they can re-release as holiday and special events. So now they are focusing on much more permanent content.

It's a wonderful strategy and I commend them for it. It is much much better than the "play the same old boring content over and over" for 6 months to 2 years (WoW) while you wait for an expansion.

I have issues with GW2's WvW and don't like instanced dungeons, but that is a subjective personal preference. And even with those issues I still log in occasionally and have a lot of fun doing whatever new content came out that month (and I don't spend a dime). I sure as hell can't fault them for going the direction they did. It has been hugely successful for them.


Oh, and I don't begrudge anyone their success. If ANET is making money hand over fist, great, they deserve it. I hope it encourages more games to follow the same B2P model, it's by far my favorite way to pay for and play a game. And if at the same time it cuts into some of Blizzard / Activision's cashflow, so much the better.

He said they've been updating the game with greater frequency than any current MMO. Which is pretty true now that Rift has fallen off.

Utnayan_sl said:

I was comparing the content updates they have created to a paid subscription based MMORPG for reference. Grim1 just stated that Guild Wars 2 now has more updates than any other MMORPG in the world. Brad Mcquaid just looked over here at this forum again knowing something more ridiculous has been said than when Grim1 said Vanguard was the MMORPG of a lifetime.

And NcSoft announced it in their earnings reports. I don't give a shit what ArenaNet says. If NcSoft wants it, they'll get it.

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Seriously man no one makes Arena Net do shit at NC. First and foremost their isn't enough structure left in the states with the authority to tell Anet a fucking thing. Secondly none of the executive staff in Korea can make a decision and those that do exist lack talent to execute anything or even see anything to completion. Anet made them a lot of money, relatively speaking for the US and EU markets and that is still dwarfed by what the Lineage brand of games make so they really cant be bothered to make a decision at a level that isn't operational. Simply put NCsoft is not competent enough to be an overlord or commit any kind of EA dickery. Its just not possible. I take that back they can do layoffs.


TLDR: No one tells Mike O'Brien & co how to run the game.