The Elder Scrolls Online

Droigan

Trakanon Raider
2,501
1,168
One thing that is disappointing is the group size. I dont understand why they keep shrinking the group size down from gen to gen in these games. First it was 6, then 5 and now 4.
Probably partly because the focus of action oriented combat makes it harder to fight when there are multiple people running around. But mostly though I think it is due to making mmos more solo friendly, which forces them to give all characters abilities that would enable them to cc,tank,dps to some extent. Giving all players those abilities changes how you design group content too. When everyone can do everything, you have certain specializations that might give you more hp or magic abilities and that defines you into a role, but most still carry around rudimentary skills to make them viable in any and all solo play. For instance CC abilities to handle adds, where the obvious example would be chain stunning. This would be very easy to do in a dungeon unless they add resists where once stunned, resists were raised. Stun then having to be a normalized term applied to the dozen different CC abilities the various classes have. Four mobs in the room, no problem cc three of them. Four people in group, so even have one to spare. Six people in the group would then trivialize the encounter.

So I think the sad and simple answer is that it is just easier to lower the number of people in a group compared to balancing it to the massive increase in power all players have alone now compared to a game like Everquest. I had no CC as a mage in EQ except my pet. Adds usually meant me running or dying during solo play and adds in group places usually demolished my pet in a hit, so I was useless as any form of CC. Mage was far from the worst solo class in EQ, but every class of every mmo I have played since have had massive increases in survivability compared to it. That survivability is also brought to the dungeons and group play, making it harder to design them not to be trivial the more people are in the group regardless of classes. Not that it can't be done, but it requires more time and money, which isn't usually a commodity publishers/shareholders award mmo developers.
 

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
I think the biggest reason than I liked this game is that I had low expectations. I thought that it would be horrendously bad, and at first it seemed to be. But I decided to give it a good go and it really grew on me. It is not a game that I will be playing for years to come, but I imagine that I could get more enjoyment out of it than the two weeks I got from FFxiv, and to be honest I don't see any point in playing Wildstar over this simply because if I wanted WoW raiding then I would still be playing WoW. I fully expect it to go F2P because most mmos do.

Four man groups are dumb though. The game is supposed to be able to handle zerg pvp, so it should certainly handle big group sizes. Give me lineage 2 nine man groups any day instead of this four man group crap.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,215
895
So release is April with some early access via pre-ordering. How often are they patching and making improvement? Just curious how much is solved week to week?
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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The problem with 4 man groups is for one, everyone needs to perform at their highest, which means your noob friend is out. no room for carying anyone at that point. All the mistakes that are made are just amplified in a smaller group size with no room for a buffer. Second, having 1/2 of your group be healer and tank, or better explained 2:1 ratio of DPS to tank and healer is shitty for all the DPS. This even sucks in WoWs 5 man groups, let alone games like FFXIV which saw queues for DPS skyrocket because of the group size.

Most people that play mmos just dont want the responsibility of being a tank or a healer.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
The problem with 4 man groups is for one,everyone needs to perform at their highest, which means your noob friend is out. no room for carying anyone at that point. All the mistakes that are made are just amplified in a smaller group size with no room for a buffer. Second, having 1/2 of your group be healer and tank, or better explained 2:1 ratio of DPS to tank and healer is shitty for all the DPS. This even sucks in WoWs 5 man groups, let alone games like FFXIV which saw queues for DPS skyrocket because of the group size.

Most people that play mmos just dont want the responsibility of being a tank or a healer.
Dungeon crawling that requires everyone to perform at their highest brings back fond memories of playing my bard in EQ1. If that is how dungeon crawling, especially with the veteran dungeons, functions in this game then IMO the EQ1 vets will enjoy that aspect. The WoW generation used to easy mode AOE tanking and AOE DPSing may have some problems until they adjust.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
Unless you plan to roll with a guild specifically for AvA, I would NOT buy it, period. If you do plan to buy it then your best option is to pre-order for the bonus explorer items and I'm certain there are still GMG codes floating around for 25% off which means you can pick up the digital standard for $45.
Since I do not count, this is another closed beta testers opinion.
So you quote pyksel when he agrees with you but you ignore him when he confirmed you were lying about being in the closed beta?
 

selis

Molten Core Raider
24
0
Unless you plan to roll with a guild specifically for AvA, I would NOT buy it, period. If you do plan to buy it then your best option is to pre-order for the bonus explorer items and I'm certain there are still GMG codes floating around for 25% off which means you can pick up the digital standard for $45.
That's thing I'm most drawn too (AvA). I think I'll preorder and give it a shot, since it's 25% off with GMG codes.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
To be fair Blackwulf, I can't recall ever seeing anyone suck the cock of a game the way you have been. At least Rescola is just providing information without gushing over every goddamn thing.

What I noticed in that dungeon vid: How does the healer know when his HOTS are running? There were zero indicators anywhere. And I see everything except the boss falls over dead in one swing.

EDIT: And lol at "eq style vs wow generation." You have got to be fucking kidding me. Did you see that video? Its four guys soloing mobs that die instantly. Nothing lived long enough to even damage anyone. How many BC and Cata heroics and 10-man stratholmes did you do back in the day?
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
Wut? May have been like that for a Bard but I guarantee you no other class broke a sweat.
We have different memories of EQ1 then. In my experience (I wasn't a hardcore raider decked out in the best gear) if someone in your group screwed up, especially the puller or crowd controller, there was a good chance your group wiped.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
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Most of the time in EQ if you were DPS you could half-ass it or play poorly (and most people did). Very few people bothered to run a parser so they had no good way of knowing what kind of numbers you were throwing up.

As a healer nobody knew your mana level so you could bullshit people, and few people would pay enough attention to see if you were cycling your medding correctly, casting the right spells at the right time etc.

And for tanks nobody knew if you were messing up your aggro generation so if someone pulled aggro it was generally their fault.

For pullers/mezzers/slowers/debuffers/miscutility standards were usually so low anyway. Anytime I was mezzing/pulling/slowing/charming/fearing/snaring as a bard people were amazed, but they would've been okay if I just sat there and played mana song while 4 mobs were running amok.

Overall EQ had a very low skill-cap for most classes and no requirement to hit that skill cap in grouping situations. On the other hand it had a huge penalty if you screwed up by aggroing adds, breaking mez, getting aggro etc.
 
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What I noticed in that dungeon vid: How does the healer know when his HOTS are running? There were zero indicators anywhere. And I see everything except the boss falls over dead in one swing.
It's action combat. It's happening much faster than "indicators for hots running." You are working much more on counts in your head. There are some sparklies and ground glow for the aoe but if you are working off indicators, then it's gonna go wrong. You don't hit characters with heals. You hit the ground or you autoheal lowest members - at least that's what my skills did. Again, it was kinda fun.

Also, mobs don't just fall down. That group in the videos is pretty good and had done those dungeons before. They are taking advantage of a lot of synergies too which most new players seemed to have trouble with.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
To be fair Blackwulf, I can't recall ever seeing anyone suck the cock of a game the way you have been. At least Rescola is just providing information without gushing over every goddamn thing.

What I noticed in that dungeon vid: How does the healer know when his HOTS are running? There were zero indicators anywhere. And I see everything except the boss falls over dead in one swing.

EDIT: And lol at "eq style vs wow generation." You have got to be fucking kidding me. Did you see that video? Its four guys soloing mobs that die instantly. Nothing lived long enough to even damage anyone. How many BC and Cata heroics and 10-man stratholmes did you do back in the day?
I'll explain what I meant by that when the NDA is lifted. The dungeons in those videos are all for level 12-15 characters. No idea what level those players were but I do know they aren't near as challenging if you are in the high teens/lows 20s when you do them.

BTW in my WoW reference I wasn't referring to vanilla WoW, which to this day remains my favorite MMO experience along with Karazhan raids in TBC. The game hadn't gotten dumbed down yet where AOE tanking allowed even a crappy player to be able to play a tank.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
We have different memories of EQ1 then. In my experience (I wasn't a hardcore raider decked out in the best gear) if someone in your group screwed up, especially the puller or crowd controller, there was a good chance your group wiped.
As long as you had the Trinity you had to work really hard to screw up. Unless you were fucked by bugged pathing that brought the entire zone down on you at once. EQ was only hard if you strayed outside of the trinity.

(PS: The original definition of trinity was Warrior / Cleric / Enchanter. Not category / category / category, but those three classes)
 

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
To be fair Blackwulf, I can't recall ever seeing anyone suck the cock of a game the way you have been. At least Rescola is just providing information without gushing over every goddamn thing.

What I noticed in that dungeon vid: How does the healer know when his HOTS are running? There were zero indicators anywhere. And I see everything except the boss falls over dead in one swing.

EDIT: And lol at "eq style vs wow generation." You have got to be fucking kidding me. Did you see that video? Its four guys soloing mobs that die instantly. Nothing lived long enough to even damage anyone. How many BC and Cata heroics and 10-man stratholmes did you do back in the day?
My newbiew dungeon experience:

It took perhaps 4 abilities or 8 hard white hits to kill a mob. Mob pack size ranged from 4 to 12. A 12 mob pull was absolutely no joke and we wiped multiple times because I messed up my block timing (you have to block the telegraphed attacks when you are tanking 8+ mobs, but if you just hold the block key then all mobs seem to deaggro after a couple of seconds). It seemed harder than a wow level 60 dungeon or modern heroic, but most of the difficulty probably came from us not knowing what we were doing.

I am guessing that the guys in the above video are over-levelled for the dungeon.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
Most of the time in EQ if you were DPS you could half-ass it or play poorly (and most people did). Very few people bothered to run a parser so they had no good way of knowing what kind of numbers you were throwing up.

As a healer nobody knew your mana level so you could bullshit people, and few people would pay enough attention to see if you were cycling your medding correctly, casting the right spells at the right time etc.

And for tanks nobody knew if you were messing up your aggro generation so if someone pulled aggro it was generally their fault.

For pullers/mezzers/slowers/debuffers/miscutility standards were usually so low anyway. Anytime I was mezzing/pulling/slowing/charming/fearing/snaring as a bard people were amazed, but they would've been okay if I just sat there and played mana song while 4 mobs were running amok.

Overall EQ had a very low skill-cap for most classes and no requirement to hit that skill cap in grouping situations.On the other hand it had a huge penalty if you screwed up by aggroing adds, breaking mez, getting aggro etc.
That is the general point I was making. From the point onward where WoW dumbed down the game and made AOE tanking easy mode, IMO very few MMOs have required groups to play at a high level. The point I was trying to make is that I think ESO is closer to how dungeon crawling in EQ1/vanilla WoW worked versus easy mode AOE tanking you see in many MMOs.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,501
11,755
Most people that play mmos just dont want the responsibility of being a tank or a healer.
Exactly. This is the problem. And then, with 4 man groups where anyone can potentially be any role, your average gamer's 'highest' performance is pretty low, and they don't want the responsibility of a real role, so the game just ends up too easy for anyone even slightly competent. Or it's challenging, and everyone bitches and whines and gets everything nerfed.

I think TESO online will be fun casually. Or with one or two 'serious' friends. Because the group content isn't going to be hard enough, for long enough, to make it challenging for a 'full' group of 4 competent gamers to get any fun out of it. Duoing might be the sweet spot in TESO?

EQ was smart design in that it fosters the few doing the work for the many. Giving everyone the chance to shine isn't what most people can handle.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
As long as you had the Trinity you had to work really hard to screw up. Unless you were fucked by bugged pathing that brought the entire zone down on you at once. EQ was only hard if you strayed outside of the trinity.

(PS: The original definition of trinity was Warrior / Cleric / Enchanter. Not category / category / category, but those three classes)
I agree with what you are saying about the trinity but for me as a bard most of the time when I did dungeons I replaced the enchanter. When we did have an enchanter things did go a lot more smoothly. This just goes to reinforce the point I am trying to make. How many MMOs since EQ1 have made crowd control an integral part of the dungeon crawl experience? I think you will see a return to that dynamic in ESO.
 

Droigan

Trakanon Raider
2,501
1,168
Hahah, really?
Well sort of. I am certainly defending the bottom line of his crusade. I have no knowledge of the developers or engine behind this game, but based on things I have seen so far, it appears he has been right for a long time about his statements regarding their plans for F2P and the likes. Odds are, he is then also right about the why, because he is nothing if not detailed in the specifics of his anger.

I am utterly annoyed with companies doing this shit, hiding products that don't match their marketing behind NDAs and review embargoes. It is not good for us gamers. I dismissed Ut as full of shit in Vanguard too when he ranted and raved on knowing developers and having sekrit infos, mainly because he gives off a very arrogant vibe when he goes into rage mode. Turned out he wasn't full of shit though. Thing is I rarely see him turn full rage mode without telling of his uber connections and secret infos, and also never seen him go full rage mode and be outright wrong.

He usually goes. Project A will fail in this way due to X developer. This will not go well due to Y problem caused by X developer. They have problem with Z feature due to Y problem. And so on.

Hence, I rarely comment on him as I usually don't have anything to contribute to his rants as I have no knowledge of behind the scenes stuff. But I do read it, and don't mind in depth talk of developers instead of the same talk of what is great/missing since EQ. Many people were right about Vanguard failing, that was the period where I noticed Ut first because I hated his posts that were negative towards what I hoped would be the next EQ. However, vast majority talked about gameplay features that were in or missing that would cause the game to fail. He didn't, instead he talked about developers which would lead to buggy engines and bosses who weren't responsible and shouldn't be trusted with the money. We were left with a game that had some of the best classes ever designed in a mmo, good gameplay, good grouping interaction, so features were more than good enough to be successful, but stuck behind a stuttering monster of an engine with a boss who ended up not being very responsible with the money distribution.

Very easy to be right regarding mmos, just comment on all games, and say "this will fail", and odds are it will in some way, they are hard to make. However, having previously been so detailed and hitting the mark on where the problems were leads me to listen now when he talks of his insider connections rather than just dismiss it as the rants of an egomaniac neckbeard.