The Elder Scrolls Online
- Thread starter Anomander Rake
- Start date
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just feel like I've already said too much. /ignore me if you want.
Tarrant
<Prior Amod>
- 15,547
- 8,995
Yeah it's getting too cold too quickly here.It's going to be 36 degrees tonight
If you're gonna give the guy a hard time at least do it for valid reasons. Not breaking NDA isn't one of those reasons.
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 916
- 48
I don't deny them, au contraire mon ami, I love(d) them. I just stated that nobody made a hard 5 or 6 ppl content as endgame because they never tried hard enough to make it work. Just make room smaller? Not perfect but it's a start. If you consider for example LK dungeons that were added after the ugly tournament, Pit of Saron and the other two, those were not totally trivial the first few times (overgearing need not apply) and they had interesting mechanics, ring of undead adds with melee+caster mobs, Arthas chasing you up that slope while you were swarmed by adds, etc.
If you make a large room and have 5 people avoid fire, it's by default easier because there are less people that can fuck up. As many said and as I repeated above, the real difficulty is performing your role while doing all those things. When you have to perform to the top while executing everything flawlessly, you have heroic mode raiding. With smaller rooms and smaller groups, the experience is just on a different scale, devs proved that they can do stuff as difficult as it comes if they want (wow challenge modes are not a walk in the park, given that they can't be outgeared), it's just that when they do, is a side dish and never the main course.
Eh , I guess I get they are going for the console crowd that demands I play in the lobby with my friends whenever I want. They just need to quit trying to sell the shit in any way as massive pvp that matters in any form. It's a large PVP lobby that just doesn't let you instantly pick which lobby every time , but still a lobby.
Friend pass , pay your shiny PVP tokens, timer based, etc , sounds like there's nothing "persistent" about the PVP.
DAOC's rule about you pick a side for the server and that's your side , period (with no bunny hopping server mechanics), combined with you'll be fighting the same players on the other two sides and get to know and hate them in battle and on message boards, just is my idea of "massive persistent PVP".
Friend pass , pay your shiny PVP tokens, timer based, etc , sounds like there's nothing "persistent" about the PVP.
DAOC's rule about you pick a side for the server and that's your side , period (with no bunny hopping server mechanics), combined with you'll be fighting the same players on the other two sides and get to know and hate them in battle and on message boards, just is my idea of "massive persistent PVP".
Me /facepalming is giving someone a hard time? You can believe him all you want. I on the other hand am pretty sure ESO and GW 2 end game is exactly the same.Yeah it's getting too cold too quickly here.
If you're gonna give the guy a hard time at least do it for valid reasons. Not breaking NDA isn't one of those reasons.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
- 16,291
- 12,054
Yes you are right. GW2 was miles beyond it. Considering you could actually press buttons and have some semblance of response. Nice reply to my developer PM (crickets). Kind of ironic since he is working for the company and gives more information in a single PM. I understand why you can't because your writing and access to interviews will be destroyed, but at least I am telling the truth. With that said, I have had 4 people now, 2 working onthis, 2 are now not, telling me the same exact thing. This is coming directly from the people working on it. You, on the other hand, with that one remark above, damn near sounded like Curt Schilling defending his MMORPG before his company tanked. (I know you are not him ... just sounded like that while reading)
Hope you enjoyed your wine, and I hope to God you have about 50 more cases of it in April when this thing launches and your inroads get shit canned with ZO management. You'll need it when you name your next handle and go to promote Rich Vogel's Fallout Online.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
I think your idea of how invested I am in this is way outta whack. If the game is as bad as you say it is, I'll wonder what they did to ruin the game between now and April, and I'll write you a public love letter, extolling your virtues. Then I'll move on to waiting for Pathfinder or something.
With regard to your "dev pm" that sounded amazingly like you, what do you want me to say? He sounds like a disgruntled employee that doesn't like design decisions the management are making. Like I've said before, I imagine it's hard to please dozens of prima dona coders, especially when they all know exactly how "it should be done." It's obvious that mistakes have been made -the game is overdue, no shit. If you really think they are only going to have level 1 to 20 content when they ship, you're out to lunch.
About this ability lag you keep mentioning, I haven't seen it. How current are your pm leaks?
I'm trying to put myself into your "dev leaker's" shoes and I can't imagine I would deal with my product's problems by leaking rants to a guy on a forum. I guess it could happen...
So Ut, just to be sure, you have not played a recent build, right?
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
- 16,291
- 12,054
So you are agreeing with me it is as bad as I say it is, and you are banking on the fact that they fix it between now and April. Correct?
Well, that would be 4 disgruntled employees then, and 18 disgruntled beta testers. 5 of them post here. 3 of the developers post here. (A lot of ZO employees read this forum)
I never said that. I said that a solid 80% of the assets and resources are at Paul Sage's disposal, who is still polishing 1-20. 20-50 is suffering huge right now, and PvP speaks for itself. This leaves very little time to try and match the GCD/Animation response times, balance PvP along with classes and traits/talents/abilities, and encounter design. (If combat responsiveness gets a pass at all because from an engine perspective, it cannot be fixed. Only tweaked.) The best result will be SWTOR, which still suffers a ton from this. 30+ content doesn't exist. 20-30 is in internal. World building is taking off thanks to collaboration design of Hero, but most assets are still tied up with low level circle jerks.
You haven't seen it because you are not playing an internal build with all the talent / ability bloat where you do more than just tab target and shoot fireballs.
These guys rant to me all the time. They like seeing real information get out there. It's probably very therapeutic for them. I dunno... Ask Denault how he felt 4 years ago. They, unlike some at ZO, have a conscience when it comes to the outright spin doctoring going on right now and feel the need to speak up. They obviously won't do it themselves because of a fear of being blackballed in the industry. They know I won't rat on them, and it's there are enough skeptics out there that think I am insane that they feel safe
The last three builds haven't done anything to address this. Just like the last build 6 months ago did nothing to pass animations which they told the gaming public they did.
Which build? Internal, closed Friends and family/press beta, or weekend public invite beta?
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
Huh? No, I'm saying that in my opinion and many many others' - it is not a "steaming pile of shit," so if it turns out to be as you have predicted a "trainwreck" or a "steaming pile of shit" I'll have to wonder what they did between now and April to ruin it.
Assuming you're telling the truth, and that the people sending you PMs are legit. If that's the case, it still leaves hundreds of employees who aren't leaking disgruntled rants to you. And tens of thousands of beta testers.
Interesting since they are still maintaining that they aren't using Hero Engine. I guess I just don't get it with regard to GCD/Animation problems - I recently spent a bit of time in SWTOR and even that admittedly mediocre game seemed fine to me with this regard. Not sure what you are talking about, or it must be something rather subtle.
Doesn't really make sense. I'll not elaborate at this time.
Still seems sketchy - so if I made an alt account right now and sent you a PM that I was "an angry ZOS dev" and told you about how Matt Firor routinely eats my lunch out of the fridge and Paul Sage makes me rewrite my code all the time, you'd be like, "Bingo! 5th Dev PM!" ?? Or do you know these guys outside of the PMs?These guys rant to me all the time. They like seeing real information get out there. It's probably very therapeutic for them. I dunno... Ask Denault how he felt 4 years ago. They, unlike some at ZO, have a conscience when it comes to the outright spin doctoring going on right now and feel the need to speak up. They obviously won't do it themselves because of a fear of being blackballed in the industry. They know I won't rat on them, and it's there are enough skeptics out there that think I am insane that they feel safe
I mean, have you played this game?
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
- 16,291
- 12,054
You failed to answer any questions. Which build are you referring to. I listed the three ongoing at the moment. Which one have you played or/playing? And yes I know who they are, what they are currently working on, and which teams they are associated with. One is management. They flat out lied when they said they did an animation pass when they never did about six months ago. They did a GCD/Combat pass to try and match animation sequences with the cool down timers. It's still horrible.
What doesn't make sense about me telling you that you have not seen the GCD/Animation hitches because you aren't playing a beta that doesn't have anything but level 1-15 content in it where abilities are down to about 2 with action clicks for the rest? The main complaints from all beta testers are that of combat. It feels horrible, isn't responsive, and yes, it's base is Hero Engine. It has to be. They need the collaboration world building tools to even come close to being able to come close to any semblance of a content lock in March before live team transition. Which unfortunately will be a skeleton crew after launch.
SWTOR, as anyone knows here that has played it, suffers from ability lag. I'll explain.
Animations do not get cut in lieu of the next ability hit after a global cool down of abilities. The animation is still going from the last ability, which means that in some cases, the other abilities of the class are ready to use, but you can't because the animation from the previous ability hasn't been completed yet. It doesn't fire. Meaning players mash the button waiting for the previous animation to quit so they can fire off the next ability. The reason why you aren't seeing this is because the combat in TESO is similar to GW2, and you will not see abilities show up until you actually progress enough. Have you tested beyond level 20? If so, that leads me to believe you are playing an internal build. If you are playing an internal build, you are much more than a writer for a fansite.
Play WoW and you will notice that animations will cut themselves short regardless of GCD so when a player uses the next ability it will fire, regardless of previous animation - therefore, much more responsive. It's similar to when you may be playing an FPS and the hit detection of an NPC goes away when an NPC is still in an animation sequence of being hit last time - or getting up from the last attack.
Things that have been spun so far to sell boxes:
* 1st person view just like Skyrim = It's a camera zoom without a POV fix which is terrible in WoW, and terrible here. The game was made for 3rd person.
* Quests are not collect 10 bear asses. Yet, there are plenty collect bear asses. So many bear asses one could resurrect about 56 Ben's from The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams and have more NPC bear mercenaries than WoW's Beta 3 Hecular bugged quest spawn (About 30 would spawn) that would wipe out Southshore and all alliance.
* So much to do for PvE players in Cyrodill = Daily quest faction grind.
* The MMORPG shift to a multiplayer Skyrim (At least they admitted the shift. Now they need to charge for a box sale without a subscription. Because imagine paying a subscription fee for Defiance.)
* Saying world PvP matters and watching you compare it to DAOC as to why you are excited. It isn't anything like DAOC. The popularity of RvR was before new Frontiers and ToA. At it's height of popularity, about 3 months after SI, it was balanced and nothing really like it. It was on a static server, mixed with the PvE world, and had real repercussions across the actual server based on capturing relics. Now it is instanced. Multiple times. People will be able to leave a campaign anytime they want, and join another one, for in game PvP currency. Very similar to, "Hey I am sick of this battlefield 3 server, I think I will switch". There are no impacts on the world at large, there is no reason to fight the war. There is no persistence. And lengthening a time frame for how long a war wages while playing capture the keep in a back and forth ping pong match is stale and old. Add to that they think keep battling will have meaning because of "connecting the spawn dots". What was being fought for? Once the game was known to have zero end game aside from RvR and heroic dungeon runs/daily reputation grinds, everyone that had half a brain wanted static servers. The ability to make an RvR campaign that would be worth fighting and having it escalate over time which had serious implications for the 2 losing factions and huge rewards for the winner. Across the entire world, which would then shift the PvE game into something completely different as a result. Too bad this was scrapped in 2008.
That is a game you are missing out on Blackwulf.
I ride you so much because I read your posts and quite literally know you are full of shit. Maybe if you ever posted a semblance of truth, I wouldn't come after you and maybe neither would anyone else. because then at least while you are promoting the good and the bad, you are being honest about it instead of covering over and spinning the majority of this unfinished over budget and internally despised project into something it isn't making it seem like you are trying to do what we all know ZO is trying to get everyone to do. Buy a box to recoup the money spent by their horrible management's planning, preparation, implementation, and deployment.
What doesn't make sense about me telling you that you have not seen the GCD/Animation hitches because you aren't playing a beta that doesn't have anything but level 1-15 content in it where abilities are down to about 2 with action clicks for the rest? The main complaints from all beta testers are that of combat. It feels horrible, isn't responsive, and yes, it's base is Hero Engine. It has to be. They need the collaboration world building tools to even come close to being able to come close to any semblance of a content lock in March before live team transition. Which unfortunately will be a skeleton crew after launch.
SWTOR, as anyone knows here that has played it, suffers from ability lag. I'll explain.
Animations do not get cut in lieu of the next ability hit after a global cool down of abilities. The animation is still going from the last ability, which means that in some cases, the other abilities of the class are ready to use, but you can't because the animation from the previous ability hasn't been completed yet. It doesn't fire. Meaning players mash the button waiting for the previous animation to quit so they can fire off the next ability. The reason why you aren't seeing this is because the combat in TESO is similar to GW2, and you will not see abilities show up until you actually progress enough. Have you tested beyond level 20? If so, that leads me to believe you are playing an internal build. If you are playing an internal build, you are much more than a writer for a fansite.
Play WoW and you will notice that animations will cut themselves short regardless of GCD so when a player uses the next ability it will fire, regardless of previous animation - therefore, much more responsive. It's similar to when you may be playing an FPS and the hit detection of an NPC goes away when an NPC is still in an animation sequence of being hit last time - or getting up from the last attack.
Things that have been spun so far to sell boxes:
* 1st person view just like Skyrim = It's a camera zoom without a POV fix which is terrible in WoW, and terrible here. The game was made for 3rd person.
* Quests are not collect 10 bear asses. Yet, there are plenty collect bear asses. So many bear asses one could resurrect about 56 Ben's from The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams and have more NPC bear mercenaries than WoW's Beta 3 Hecular bugged quest spawn (About 30 would spawn) that would wipe out Southshore and all alliance.
* So much to do for PvE players in Cyrodill = Daily quest faction grind.
* The MMORPG shift to a multiplayer Skyrim (At least they admitted the shift. Now they need to charge for a box sale without a subscription. Because imagine paying a subscription fee for Defiance.)
* Saying world PvP matters and watching you compare it to DAOC as to why you are excited. It isn't anything like DAOC. The popularity of RvR was before new Frontiers and ToA. At it's height of popularity, about 3 months after SI, it was balanced and nothing really like it. It was on a static server, mixed with the PvE world, and had real repercussions across the actual server based on capturing relics. Now it is instanced. Multiple times. People will be able to leave a campaign anytime they want, and join another one, for in game PvP currency. Very similar to, "Hey I am sick of this battlefield 3 server, I think I will switch". There are no impacts on the world at large, there is no reason to fight the war. There is no persistence. And lengthening a time frame for how long a war wages while playing capture the keep in a back and forth ping pong match is stale and old. Add to that they think keep battling will have meaning because of "connecting the spawn dots". What was being fought for? Once the game was known to have zero end game aside from RvR and heroic dungeon runs/daily reputation grinds, everyone that had half a brain wanted static servers. The ability to make an RvR campaign that would be worth fighting and having it escalate over time which had serious implications for the 2 losing factions and huge rewards for the winner. Across the entire world, which would then shift the PvE game into something completely different as a result. Too bad this was scrapped in 2008.
That is a game you are missing out on Blackwulf.
I ride you so much because I read your posts and quite literally know you are full of shit. Maybe if you ever posted a semblance of truth, I wouldn't come after you and maybe neither would anyone else. because then at least while you are promoting the good and the bad, you are being honest about it instead of covering over and spinning the majority of this unfinished over budget and internally despised project into something it isn't making it seem like you are trying to do what we all know ZO is trying to get everyone to do. Buy a box to recoup the money spent by their horrible management's planning, preparation, implementation, and deployment.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
Okay, I'm starting to feel like I'm being trolled. It's like a circular argument. I think I've figured you out, though, Ut. You've heard some rumors from early testers and maybe had a disgruntled ex-employee friend send you a PM and now you are making some massive conjectures.
Let me give this it's own line for stress: I'm eagerly waiting for this game to come out so people can see how massively full of shit you are.
You are wrong on many counts, but the little assertions you make are what really shred your credibility: trying to assert what levels have been available in betas, trying to assert that it must be the hero engine, trying to assert that you have any clue what combat feels like, trying to assert that you know what the AvA is like. It makes all of your other statements lose credibility when anyone who actually does have a clue sees how patently wrong you are.
I'll reiterate what I said yesterday: I don't lie about how I feel about this game. This game has a lot of potential; I would buy it as is. I hope it is even better in half a year or so when they plan to release (spring.) It has some design challenges, that don't excite me: 1 - Because of the megaserver (a good thing) they have to instance Cyrodiil (a bad thing.) I hope they can come up with a way to make it seamless and persistent on a character to character basis. 2 - They are torn with trying to please three different fan bases: PVPers, ES fanatics, and MMO fans. That's hard, and it might make it less appealing to any one of those 3 groups.
All your bullshit ranting about the drama behind the scenes means exactly jack and shit. Who cares at the end of the day? If the game is good, we'll play it, and if it sucks, we'll talk shit for a couple weeks then go on to waiting for the next game.
So, anyway, anyone wanna discuss the vid they released today?
The jig is up!
One thing i do know...Utnayan's industry buddies are some pretty unlucky bastards. They are supposedly some of the most talented folks in the industry yet seem to constantly work on crap projects led by highly incompetent and unethical no talent hacks that are able to torpedo these projects despite the great talent working for them. i think i'd pick a different industry eventually...
Dashivax
N00b
- 114
- 3
Anyone who played SWTOR and literally any other MMO ever made knows exactly what Ut has been talking about when it comes to the hero engine and the awful animation/GCD syncing issues (that they still have not fixed in SWTOR.)
Go peddle your shit somewhere else, maybe try somewhere they aren't so informed.
I have no ties to either party but to be fair, ZOhasmaintained that the game does not use the Hero Engine/will not use it in ESO's final iteration. The game has its issues but of all things to argue about this is rather silly. All we really have is one guy arguing that it justhasto be the Hero Engine (with no solid proof) and another guy saying, "Nuh uh."
So I'm not really seeing where the "informed" part is coming from, but it's all really a moot point.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
- 16,291
- 12,054
When I said it has to be the hero engine I said that in meaning of they have no other choice. They got so far behind they need the world building tools to make 75% of the world in less than six months. Hero allows for very fast content creation. They use the same graphical landscape defaults. Christ just compare the screenshots of TOR and teso. Either way it doesn't even matter. Bioware's aborted attempt at reengineering an alpha engine in 2009 has no bearing on how teso will run. They have made good system improvements. The problem is the native animation lock with the gcd. It isn't fixable.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
Oh, good, you had the balls to post an opinion rather than just neg rep me from the shadows! Dude, I played SWTOR quite a bit. I had 30 fucking abilities on different timers that I would be hand cramped to use on a normal keyboard, so I mapped them to macros on my G13. I ran around the warzones and hit my 4 button rotation that fired all my abilities that were off timer. I don't know what I was supposed to be seeing with animation hitches, but that was the least of my concerns. I guess we just look at different things when we play - I was watching health bars, enemy attack animations, ground targets, and basically running around hitting interrupts and what little CC I had. Animation hitches? The whole fucking fight was a giant ball of explosions and people hopping all over the place. I mean it was fun for a few months, but it got kinda old doing the same warzones over and over.
Anywho, chief, you can ask anyone who's played, even the folks at conventions - the combat isn't like swtor.