The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

a c i d.f l y · Apr 10, 2021

Falcon.

Winter Soldier.

Fuck those guys. They should have just called this series Baron Zemo. I'm at least appreciative that his character didn't expire after Winter Soldier. Next to Tony finishing things, the next best.... Moment. Was Zemo with Panther.

He's an Empire Strikes Back character.

You don't want the villain to win, but he makes you feel like the hero doesn't deserve to win.

Yet.

Plus he's just so god damn badass as an actor.

Winter Soldier could have been a cheesy ass movie, but his villainy sold the rest. Literally built the rest.

a c i d.f l y · Apr 10, 2021

I'm sure there's a term for it in the industry where they just go from one scene to the next, interrupting whatever happened before it like nothing happened. That happens in basically every scene. This episode was so much just... Shit thrown around. Good concepts. Good scenes. But structurally fucking A+ hot garbage. Substance and story was a black hole of nothingness.

Zemo gets away, nucap buddy dies, juiced up nucap kills someone on camera. Spoiler alert.

Editing was trash. To be fair it was like reading the 6 issues of a comic between moments that mattered.

rhinohelix · Apr 10, 2021

a c i d.f l y said:
Falcon.

Winter Soldier.

Fuck those guys. They should have just called this series Baron Zemo. I'm at least appreciative that his character didn't expire after Winter Soldier. Next to Tony finishing things, the next best.... Moment. Was Zemo with Panther.

He's an Empire Strikes Back character.

You don't want the villain to win, but he makes you feel like the hero doesn't deserve to win.

Yet.

Plus he's just so god damn badass as an actor.

Winter Soldier could have been a cheesy ass movie, but his villainy sold the rest. Literally built the rest.

He's not even really a villain here. He was certainly a villain in Winter Soldier but in this he is a crazily compelling character. I definitely wanted to see him get away. the Dora fight scene was great but surely someone who they made Cap would know who the Wakandans are, I mean in more than the "You don't have jurisdiction here" sense? "Put down the pointy stick": Could they have been trying to make him seem like more of an ignorant bumpkin? This is just dumb plotting. I really wanted to see Battlestar, whatever his real name was, live, too. I liked that guy as well. I think in the comic story Flag Smasher kills fake Cap's parents and he goes crazy but to the same effect. While the plot isn't great, they have done a SUPER job with most of the characters, with the singular exception of New Capt, who I think is a good actor in a shaky role.

You never really got a sense this guy after the truck top fight scene was great, or really super competent; his wheels were wobbling in the first few minutes of his introduction. He's really seemed out of this depth since the end of that episode. When you are calling him "Downs Cap" out the gate, its not a great initial reaction to the casting, which can be overcome, then the plotting, compressed season, and writing don't do him any favors. He doesn't have any space to seem in this series to be "the Guy". They should have given him the comic book name (US Agent, IIRC) rather than calling him Cap; him wielding the shield would have been enough, I think.

Also, how the fuck do you win 3 MOH from one battle, which is how I thought he said it in Episode 4?

Grizzlebeard · Apr 10, 2021

In all of this and through all of their struggles F or WS have never once gone to Old Cap for guidance or information.

I mean, he's not dead, just old and retired. Yeah, the actor has presumably said, "No more" but that makes the story just that bit weaker for it.

Chukzombi · Apr 10, 2021

rhinohelix said:
He's not even really a villain here. He was certainly a villain in Winter Soldier but in this he is a crazily compelling character. I definitely wanted to see him get away. the Dora fight scene was great but surely someone who they made Cap would know who the Wakandans are, I mean in more than the "You don't have jurisdiction here" sense? "Put down the pointy stick": Could they have been trying to make him seem like more of an ignorant bumpkin? This is just dumb plotting. I really wanted to see Battlestar, whatever his real name was, live, too. I liked that guy as well. I think in the comic story Flag Smasher kills fake Cap's parents and he goes crazy but to the same effect. While the plot isn't great, they have done a SUPER job with most of the characters, with the singular exception of New Capt, who I think is a good actor in a shaky role.

You never really got a sense this guy after the truck top fight scene was great, or really super competent; his wheels were wobbling in the first few minutes of his introduction. He's really seemed out of this depth since the end of that episode. When you are calling him "Downs Cap" out the gate, its not a great initial reaction to the casting, which be overcome, then the plotting, compressed season, and writing don't do him any favors. He doesn't have any space to seem in this series to be "the Guy". They should have given him the comic book name (US Agent, IIRC) rather than calling him Cap; him wielding the shield would have been enough, I think.

Also, how the fuck do you win 3 MOH from one battle, which is how I thought he said it in Episode 4?

Zemo is pretty cool. i think he's stealing this show right out from under Bucky and Sam. why they abandoned their story arcs from episode 1, i have no idea. Sam barely even flies anymore and Bucky is holding back because he doesnt want to hurt anyone, but its allowing all kinds of fuckery to happen. at what point do you just say fuck it and take those people down like the way you know you can? and of course NuCap is the worst. they never showed how he earned the Cap shield., he seemed to have enhanced strength from the getgo, but then he didnt, then he got super strength and immediately kils some dude with his shield. its all just a mess and if they dont thread the needle with a wtf Power Broker reveal, the show will end up just being a time killer til the next actual MCU film.

oh and did they save all that footage of Sam practicing with Cap's shield in the trailers for the last scene of episode 6?

wormie · Apr 10, 2021

WandaVision is a better show.

Zweischneid · Apr 10, 2021

Xevy said:
I think they're flip flopping on Karli nonstop to make Sam have to make a hard choice at some point to prove he's worthy of the shield. Like weighing the good and bad she's done to ultimately make a judgement call whether it's against his own feelings or what. It just seems very poorly written and waffley right now from our early point of view.

I wonder what they do with New Cap. Like is he going to get killed, jailed, or become a villain anti-hero type.

Pretty sure there needs to be a fisty-cuffs between him and Sam to mirror the comics.

A) It's Marvel, so it needs to end in either a fist-fight, a sky-beam or both.

B) Ultimately, it's Sam's story arc/superhero origin story 2.0 to become/feel worthy of the shield/title, so in classic heroes journey, he has to go through the nemesis/antithesis.

Zweischneid · Apr 10, 2021

Chukzombi said:
Sam barely even flies anymore and Bucky is holding back because he doesnt want to hurt anyone, but its allowing all kinds of fuckery to happen.

Budget (despite disney?)? I mean the Episode 1 sky/helicopter chase was fun, but probably more expensive than all of Wanda Vision together. Maybe even Disney doesn't want to blow a movie's worth of money on every single episode?

Reminds me a bit of Umbrella Academy Season 2 in that regard. Blow basically all your FX-budget at one blockbuster-style opening sequence in the first episode to get people in and run the rest of the show on a regular (still pretty decent, I expect) TV-show budget.

Fadaar · Apr 10, 2021

Look familiar?

Gavinmad · Apr 10, 2021

Haus said:
Well, just got the politics review from @Mrs. Haus (most of this covered):

First episode : Black man can't get a loan.. even though he's an Avenger
Second Episode : Two guys fighting and cop just asks the white guy is everything is OK.. in a black neighborhood....
Third Episode : Sharon Carter saying "Oh yeah, you still believe in all that stars and stripes bullshit"

She has just demoted it off the "pirate it when it finishes" list to the "don't let that be on a TV when I'm around" list.. heh

Sad, another victim of PTWD.

ziggyholiday · Apr 10, 2021

Isn't Zola "dead" in the MCU though? Winter Soldier scene ended with "We are both of us out of time" which always seemed to me that he was sacrificing himself to kill Cap. There has been nothing to suggest he is still out there so I don't think it makes the most sense.

Sevens · Apr 10, 2021

ziggyholiday said:
Isn't Zola "dead" in the MCU though? Winter Soldier scene ended with "We are both of us out of time" which always seemed to me that he was sacrificing himself to kill Cap. There has been nothing to suggest he is still out there so I don't think it makes the most sense.

No one ever really dies in the MCU

Maul · Apr 10, 2021

fris said:
the only thing that New Cap did that makes sense was the shied murder. up until that point, he was just a shit actor and I couldn't wait for him to be replaced.

is bucky enhanced, beyond his arm and brain wash?

aside from new cap being most insufferable when on screen, totally digging this show. I could tolerate new cap more if we get a flashback from his war event where he got 3 medals, and we learn it's all a lie/coverup.

Did you even watch the show? You think Brain washing makes him run faster than cars, or maybe you missed the multiple times him being serum enhanced was mentioned in dialogue.

Jesus fuck, this is why we cant have nice things.

Cybsled · Apr 10, 2021

ziggyholiday said:
Isn't Zola "dead" in the MCU though? Winter Soldier scene ended with "We are both of us out of time" which always seemed to me that he was sacrificing himself to kill Cap. There has been nothing to suggest he is still out there so I don't think it makes the most sense.

If that server room with old tech was all that remained of Zola, that could make sense. Although it would be very easy for them explain Zola being around by revealing more advanced tech allowed them to copy Zola and the bunker was just the original Zola-as-a-computer. Either that or it was networked and the bunker didn't actually represent Zola anymore and he was able to exist beyond that.

But it would be kind of an odd reveal since Hydra (even in Agents of SHIELD, which milked that a lot more) is pretty much dead and gone now.

jooka · Apr 10, 2021

I'm not sure it would be that odd, he could have easily set himself up with a setup outside of hydra/shield's knowledge to ensure his survival with everything he has gone through. If anything, I would find it lame as fuck if he didn't do just that or something similar.

EDIT so the question shouldn't be, is he still around but does the powers that be at marvel want him back around.

Sevens · Apr 10, 2021

Cybsled said:
If that server room with old tech was all that remained of Zola, that could make sense. Although it would be very easy for them explain Zola being around by revealing more advanced tech allowed them to copy Zola and the bunker was just the original Zola-as-a-computer. Either that or it was networked and the bunker didn't actually represent Zola anymore and he was able to exist beyond that.

But it would be kind of an odd reveal since Hydra (even in Agents of SHIELD, which milked that a lot more) is pretty much dead and gone now.

Hydra is still around, in fact one of the primary buyers of the yellow jacket tech suit was agents of hydra in Ant Man

HYDRA Buyer

Mr. Carson introduced me to these fine gentlemen here, they're representatives of HYDRA. They’re not what they were, they’re doing some interesting work.Darren Cross to Hope van Dyne The HYDRA Buyer was an operative of HYDRA and the Ten Rings. His attempt to buy the Yellowjacket Suit with...

marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com

Attog · Apr 10, 2021

I love how it took an army of scientists and doctors, plus Erskine, plus Stark and his vita-rays, plus the serum, plus enough electricity to power half the city (which the senator complained of to William Strannix) just to turn Steve Rogers into Cap, but this guy sips some juice in between scenes and five minutes later he is fully powered up.

That is some lazy ass writing and directing right there.

joz123 · Apr 10, 2021

Attog said:
I love how it took an army of scientists and doctors, plus Erskine, plus Stark and his vita-rays, plus the serum, plus enough electricity to power half the city (which the senator complained of to William Strannix) just to turn Steve Rogers into Cap, but this guy sips some juice in between scenes and five minutes later he is fully powered up.

That is some lazy ass writing and directing right there.

Rogers became a super soldier in the fucking 40's. Of course they made the SS serum way easier to implement by now.

Voldeth · Apr 10, 2021

Sevens said:
Hydra is still around, in fact one of the primary buyers of the yellow jacket tech suit was agents of hydra in Ant Man

HYDRA Buyer

Mr. Carson introduced me to these fine gentlemen here, they're representatives of HYDRA. They’re not what they were, they’re doing some interesting work.Darren Cross to Hope van Dyne The HYDRA Buyer was an operative of HYDRA and the Ten Rings. His attempt to buy the Yellowjacket Suit with...

marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com

Yeah, not sure where the whole idea of Hydra being completely gone makes any sense. Even within this very show Zemo & Bucky exchange that, the reason why Bucky is enlisting Zemo's help is because he suspects Hydra has something to do with it and Bucky knows that, in light of that, Zemo is their best bet due to his knowledge of Hydra. It's like... The very premise for the coolest character getting out of prison is to stop Hydra and the counter-argument is that a non-cannon B list TV show indicated they were gone.

Sevens · Apr 10, 2021

Attog said:
I love how it took an army of scientists and doctors, plus Erskine, plus Stark and his vita-rays, plus the serum, plus enough electricity to power half the city (which the senator complained of to William Strannix) just to turn Steve Rogers into Cap, but this guy sips some juice in between scenes and five minutes later he is fully powered up.

That is some lazy ass writing and directing right there.

If you watch the scene with the Dr that made the new batches he talks about how improved and above his serum is over Erskins.
Seriously do a lot of you nit pickers even watch the show, or just let it play in the background till you hear / see something that triggers you?

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