The Heroes Journey (Multiclass EQemu Progression Server)

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
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Curious how it would feel if buying your BiS gear wasn't an option. Like for those that did SSF did that change how you felt about the system overall? When I played I went the bazaar route and had crazy OP stuff pretty early, but always had the feeling that an SSF approach would have been a lot more fun and perhaps the systems would have felt a lot more rewarding in that context.

Also thanks for the answers good stuff and exactly what I'm looking for.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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+Curious how it would feel if buying your BiS gear wasn't an option. Like for those that did SSF did that change how you felt about the system overall? When I played I went the bazaar route and had crazy OP stuff pretty early, but always had the feeling that an SSF approach would have been a lot more fun and perhaps the systems would have felt a lot more rewarding in that context.

Also thanks for the answers good stuff and exactly what I'm looking for.
I played during launch, and the system was honestly imbalanced to the point where I ignored most of the experience gain mechanics for items unless there was a specific item I was targeting.

I'd get upgrades quicker than I would actually find an item interesting, and often times it was faster to just re-farm an item until it procced up in quality, or leave an item in the slot and forget about it until it stopped generating messages. Or leave my PC on overnight while mobs die.

My experience may be slightly twisted by the fact that the entire item leveling system was broken due to a code bug on launch for several months.

As others pointed out, because you could reliably AFK farm, the interesting parts of the game (ie; grouping with other players) were generally automated in private instances alone. Then, it became a system of farming lower bosses by effectively one shotting them or autoattacking them until they die once per day.

This leads to the game being devoid of social interactions outside of maybe early attempts where no one has powerful gear, or some later times when someone catches you up.
As you've pointed out - buying BIS gear was a problem for how the game was structured and wasn't the only way in which that structure was broken. Being able to group with significantly more powerful characters that could get you the same gear was also a way to skip the entire design.

The only gameplay that was left after this is initial choice in character builds via their pre-defined AAs and skills/spells loadouts, and with trying to get your already-powerful character more powerful via items. The 'current best build' would generally change with the attempt to balance everything.

The best incremental upgrades came from grinding AA, and items went from 0 to 100 on power creep.
I would say that the biggest flaws in balance came from the ability to automate the best increase in power. There were a ton of folks cheating ingame by automating AA XP gains over the server's lifespan.

Forcing yourself to engage with that loop in solo or self-found just meant that you, yourself, alone, did all of the AFK killing / boring automation parts - and no one was allowed to help you. And at the end of that, you could tell the world, "Hey! I did this myself!"

Effectively, the core design was a skinner box with an EverQuest skin. And they weren't the first server to come up with that concept.

I would say the strongest part of the gameplay loop for THJ was the ability to interact with content alone based on nostalgia. It allowed players to interact in a familiar world and that nostalgia itself pulled what was otherwise 'potentially good design done slightly wrong' ahead.

I would not expect a game with THJ's exact balance to be sustainable long term, because you would eventually run dry of content. It's the same problem EQ Classless ran into, and why future iterations tried to correct that design flaw, but ultimately it boils down to needing a treadmill for the rats to run on.

Also, I don't think a THJ-like game would draw initial attention if it didn't have EverQuest attached to it - or if it didn't have EQ's years of content available without addressing its core balance and content design issues first.

To be clear, this is one of the most fatal flaws of MMOs in general, and isn't just limited to this design, but that's a different discussion. They run out of content quickly and only those with years and years of content are generally interesting for more than a cursory glance. You can see this with Pantheon, for instance - it only had so much content to go around, and to even land on the ability to make content, you had to spend a ton of time in predevelopment.

And the current methodology in which games are made will not allow for that in AAA published games - they want to get their money ASAP, and to flesh out months of playable content while making a game at MMO scale requires rapid design and content iteration. Those tools for content creation are generally reinvented each time a project attempts something like this, or if they are already invented, need to be adapted to the design of the game, which results in the same level of time consumption.

Utilizing AI would ultimately result in a lower quality product, and players will be able to easily clock AI design and narrative if they see it. It would take the right content designers to be able to modify what it outputs and make it reliably interesting.
 
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mkopec

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I mean, content will be ultimately the downfall of any MMORPG. Problem with these games is that they hook you and you spend long ass hours in them to the point of chewing through content at breakneck speeds. I guess you could go back to the launch EQ/P99 way of adding downtime everywhere, but then people these days dont really take kindly to that either. Shit, they didnt take kindly back then either but it was the only game of its type around. AAs were a great addition to EQ, some chump change rewards at the cost of tons of hours and hours of grinding. With meaningful rewards if you DID do the grind since all those minute power bumps added up to be quite powerful in the long term.

I think the biggest downfall of THJ, for me at least, was not leveraging ALL of the content EQ had aside the initial level up, which was too quick IMO. You were basically farming end game, whatever expansion era, raids. And the rest of the content was basically useless and EZ mode. I guess SSF was the answer to that. But I didnt stick around long enough to see it. Just got bored and quit.
 
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Jysin

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Which goes hand in hand with my observations. The pace was just far too quick. The nostalgia was great, but in classic, you spend an hour in one single dungeon and you’ve out-leveled every other dungeon in its range.

There is so much great EQ content, but you never saw most of it and suddenly find yourself in end-game of said xpac and everything else is irrelevant.

My SSF journey was equally as crazy paced. Within a couple weeks I went from zero to 2 epics farmed, 1kAA, and back slogging in the Luclin dungeons.

Honestly, my best enjoyment was locking my level to 50 and completing some epics I had never done before.
 
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Sylas

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I played during launch, and the system was honestly imbalanced to the point where I ignored most of the experience gain mechanics for items unless there was a specific item I was targeting.

I'd get upgrades quicker than I would actually find an item interesting, and often times it was faster to just re-farm an item until it procced up in quality, or leave an item in the slot and forget about it until it stopped generating messages. Or leave my PC on overnight while mobs die.

My experience may be slightly twisted by the fact that the entire item leveling system was broken due to a code bug on launch for several months.

As others pointed out, because you could reliably AFK farm, the interesting parts of the game (ie; grouping with other players) were generally automated in private instances alone. Then, it became a system of farming lower bosses by effectively one shotting them or autoattacking them until they die once per day.

This leads to the game being devoid of social interactions outside of maybe early attempts where no one has powerful gear, or some later times when someone catches you up.
As you've pointed out - buying BIS gear was a problem for how the game was structured and wasn't the only way in which that structure was broken. Being able to group with significantly more powerful characters that could get you the same gear was also a way to skip the entire design.

The only gameplay that was left after this is initial choice in character builds via their pre-defined AAs and skills/spells loadouts, and with trying to get your already-powerful character more powerful via items. The 'current best build' would generally change with the attempt to balance everything.

The best incremental upgrades came from grinding AA, and items went from 0 to 100 on power creep.
I would say that the biggest flaws in balance came from the ability to automate the best increase in power. There were a ton of folks cheating ingame by automating AA XP gains over the server's lifespan.

Forcing yourself to engage with that loop in solo or self-found just meant that you, yourself, alone, did all of the AFK killing / boring automation parts - and no one was allowed to help you. And at the end of that, you could tell the world, "Hey! I did this myself!"

Effectively, the core design was a skinner box with an EverQuest skin. And they weren't the first server to come up with that concept.

I would say the strongest part of the gameplay loop for THJ was the ability to interact with content alone based on nostalgia. It allowed players to interact in a familiar world and that nostalgia itself pulled what was otherwise 'potentially good design done slightly wrong' ahead.

I would not expect a game with THJ's exact balance to be sustainable long term, because you would eventually run dry of content. It's the same problem EQ Classless ran into, and why future iterations tried to correct that design flaw, but ultimately it boils down to needing a treadmill for the rats to run on.

Also, I don't think a THJ-like game would draw initial attention if it didn't have EverQuest attached to it - or if it didn't have EQ's years of content available without addressing its core balance and content design issues first.

To be clear, this is one of the most fatal flaws of MMOs in general, and isn't just limited to this design, but that's a different discussion. They run out of content quickly and only those with years and years of content are generally interesting for more than a cursory glance. You can see this with Pantheon, for instance - it only had so much content to go around, and to even land on the ability to make content, you had to spend a ton of time in predevelopment.

And the current methodology in which games are made will not allow for that in AAA published games - they want to get their money ASAP, and to flesh out months of playable content while making a game at MMO scale requires rapid design and content iteration. Those tools for content creation are generally reinvented each time a project attempts something like this, or if they are already invented, need to be adapted to the design of the game, which results in the same level of time consumption.

Utilizing AI would ultimately result in a lower quality product, and players will be able to easily clock AI design and narrative if they see it. It would take the right content designers to be able to modify what it outputs and make it reliably interesting.

i disagree with pretty much everything you've said but I understand why you said it. You basically just spend 30 paragraphs saying "This card game called solitaire doesn't seem well designed to be played with 2 or more players"

Yeah? No shit?

I don't disagree on the long term sustainability, it was never going to last forever. And yeah it was almost exclusively about memberberries. A solo version of Everquest that allows a player to go around, explore, and kill every single mob, boss, raid target, etc that they remember from a game from 25+ years ago is about nostalgia. For you fucking weirdos who run 6-54 boxes sure it's old hat by now, but for many, many players, in fact i'd argue almost all of the players that this game appealed to, this was a fresh perspective of EQ. many of them never saw these areas or really explored these zones. Unless they were a monk puller 90% of zones were never seen by the average player, almost everyone sat in the fucking corner and pointed their camera at the floor with spell effects turned off trying not to lag or pull threat and turn the boss and wipe the raid. You sat in your corner staring at the floor, turned on attack when told to, and moved to the next corner when told to by the raid leader.

Most of us missed this shit. I only every got to really see plane of Hate and the spider tunnels as a rogue for fucking corpse recovery.
 
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Deruvian

Lord Nagafen Raider
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I don't know that I agree on the pacing part.

It was maybe a bit janky, but I liked the flow. I would stop at high 20s/low 30s and grind a few hundred aa. That definitely felt like it mimics the live game a bit as you're in Mistmoore, Guk, Sol b, or wherever, just slamming mobs and getting bigger and bigger pulls as your aa strength increases.

I would also stopped in Sebilis and did another few hundred. I'd be spending the huge amount of plat generated from the gems on big bazaar upgrades.

Once your 'build' is unlocked you can go to DN or whatever and faceroll another thousand or two, at which point you can jump into getting VT key and PoP unlocks. To me this gives you a lot of natural stop points at different fun parts of the game.

Maybe this isn't true on your second run through when you're already rich, but that basically mirrors normal EQ where your subsequent toons are power leveled.

I've always liked the open nature of EQ - can do what you want to do and how you want to do it - but I did think THJ was a little punishing if you decided to totally skip aa'ing at certain points. Probably worse for the game to force the stops, but blasting straight to 50 with no AA's on your first toon is asking for pain, and it's a REALLY easy mistake to make because of how fast you level. With fairly mediocre gear, you can just wade in red mobs at 27-30 and mow them down. If your build needs some AA's to take out the classic dragons, you can do that probably 20 times faster at 30 than at 50, as your relative power level compared with mobs is just insanely high when you're lower, especially with the gear available here.


An unrelated and secondary note, but I don't really see how the THJ game scales past PoP. Everyone is very trivially maxed on relevant AA's early, so you're purely relying on item power to handle the increase in NPC difficulty, which in GoD and Omens is rather immense. I think they'd either have to put level req's/rec's on the GoD gear, tune back the NPC specifics OR add in other layers of AA's / special AA's that are gated by expansion or level or something. If you put it on items alone as the system currently stands, new player power level would be absurdly high as the expansions roll on, which i think would gut the 'journey'.
 
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