The Last of Us

Coming from someone who has not played the games, I just do understand how they went through with this in the second episode. Joel was 'the guy', Ellie is insufferable and unlikable. They could have at least worked in a few episodes that, perhaps they deviate from the game, build in some sympathy for her and leaves you really wanting vengeance. Instead I just get more forced anti-homophobia soapboxing (is this even in the game?) and then, boom, golf club. Now I am left with the choice of hate watching this show just to see some form of vengeance or cutting it loose.

Juvarisx said:

By season 3 the people shopping those pic's will just have a face with no eyes nor mouth, its funny but old they aint replacing her and shes actually a good actress ugly or not.

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I’m in this same camp

ubiquitrips said:

Coming from someone who has not played the games, I just do understand how they went through with this in the second episode. Joel was 'the guy', Ellie is insufferable and unlikable. They could have at least worked in a few episodes that, perhaps they deviate from the game, build in some sympathy for her and leaves you really wanting vengeance. Instead I just get more forced anti-homophobia soapboxing (is this even in the game?) and then, boom, golf club. Now I am left with the choice of hate watching this show just to see some form of vengeance or cutting it loose.

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First one the furthest they went was in Bill’s Town where his “partner” Bill, Joel, and Ellie find has hung himself rather than turn into one of the infected.

the left behind prequel stuff Ellie and her best friend Riley right before they were bitten, kiss. And after the infected attacked both girls realizing they were bit, decided they’d just spend the next 3 days together until they turned into those clickers calling it poetic they would lose their minds together but Riley turned into one in 3 days, Ellie never turned.

tlou2… wow they go full anti homophobia. It caught me off guard admittedly.

you're right i recall news stories of loved ones going after those who did them and theirs wrong. it usually ends in one encounter. but i am thinking over the tope rampages of revenge Kill Bill, Punisher, and, Mr. John Wick. I meant to marathon them one day too. i believe Kill Beau (Kill Bill 3) has been announced..

ubiquitrips said:

Coming from someone who has not played the games, I just do understand how they went through with this in the second episode. Joel was 'the guy', Ellie is insufferable and unlikable. They could have at least worked in a few episodes that, perhaps they deviate from the game, build in some sympathy for her and leaves you really wanting vengeance. Instead I just get more forced anti-homophobia soapboxing (is this even in the game?) and then, boom, golf club. Now I am left with the choice of hate watching this show just to see some form of vengeance or cutting it loose.

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Joel dying in the game happens when you really dont like Ellie much in Part 2 either, that happening leads to major character growth heading into the Seattle bit with the Seraphites. She is a brat and a "typical teenager" and can afford to be pissed off at Joel cause they are learn to settle into a "safe" life where there is always time to right wrongs or heals wounds.

What happens to her now in the show? Her dad is dead and he died with them being in a bad spot. Its a fear a lot of people have. I didnt get along well with mine for 20 years, but when my dad died I was happy that we were in a godo spot and talking daily. Having that shit haunt me would have been bad. Now Ellie is going to get her revenge and its uuuuuuuuuuugly.

Lol, the TV forum retard crew is out in full force defending one of the worst decisions in gaming history that they then copied into the TV show years later to the same outcome with their audience.

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LiquidDeath said:

Lol, the TV forum retard crew is out in full force defending one of the worst decisions in gaming history that they then copied into the TV show years later to the same outcome with their audience.

Chefskiss.gif

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So heres the thing for me. Joel dying in the game / show isnt inherently bad. He was a bad dude that got a second chance arc and chose to do the right thing, and the second game gave Ellie to do the exact same and she did and it cost her a lot. I think anyone who follows the meme's / whatever of the second game know the biggest "issue" was Abbey being how Abbey was and now that issue is not one in the show. There will be no "playing" as Abbey for half the show, yes we will get an episode to humanize her, but all the other bullshit will be left out. So it just becomes a revenge / growing up story which in itself is fine.

There iis a lot of opportunity to right a lot of wrongs even if keeping the general narrative the same, its up to Mazin to fix it though. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but I am not going to hate on it outright.

I give a lot of leeway to shows for the woke shit that pops up these days cause I expect it and try to enjoy shit around it. This show isnt egregious, even the "dyke" comments somewhat work if you consider humanity stuck socially 25 years in the past for the older folks still around. Theres no growth, and the mission should be re population which is obviously not what those two were up to. Yea it's a little eye rolley but there is still alot outside of it that I do like.

I want Tommy to be the "bad" guy in this, its shocking he isn't and I think we will get there. It's something I really enjoyed playing through it, and I love the morally grey shit.

Maybe you are right and it wont pay off, but theres enough different that there can be course correction on it.

Juvarisx said:

So heres the thing for me. Joel dying in the game / show isnt inherently bad. He was a bad dude that got a second chance arc and chose to do the right thing, and the second game gave Ellie to do the exact same and she did and it cost her a lot. I think anyone who follows the meme's / whatever of the second game know the biggest "issue" was Abbey being how Abbey was and now that issue is not one in the show. There will be no "playing" as Abbey for half the show, yes we will get an episode to humanize her, but all the other bullshit will be left out. So it just becomes a revenge / growing up story which in itself is fine.

There iis a lot of opportunity to right a lot of wrongs even if keeping the general narrative the same, its up to Mazin to fix it though. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but I am not going to hate on it outright.

I give a lot of leeway to shows for the woke shit that pops up these days cause I expect it and try to enjoy shit around it. This show isnt egregious, even the "dyke" comments somewhat work if you consider humanity stuck socially 25 years in the past for the older folks still around. Theres no growth, and the mission should be re population which is obviously not what those two were up to. Yea it's a little eye rolley but there is still alot outside of it that I do like.

I want Tommy to be the "bad" guy in this, its shocking he isn't and I think we will get there. It's something I really enjoyed playing through it, and I love the morally grey shit.

Maybe you are right and it wont pay off, but theres enough different that there can be course correction on it.

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Except your whole premise is flawed. Video game Joel is in no way a bad guy. There is no action he takes in the first game that is not entirely justifiable based on the post-apocalyptic world and the information he has available at the time. All attempts to cast his rescue of Ellie as anything other than heroic have been met with complete disdain by the audience, so it is absolutely no surprise that giant faggot Druckman would water down his TV show character and attempt it again. Amazingly, even turning Joel into an ultra cuck in the show couldn't change the fact that murdering every single person involved in kidnapping and trying to hurt his adoptive daughter in the most brutal way possible is still seen by most people as entirely justified at least and better than they all deserved in most cases.

If they wanted to tell the story you described, they would have had to make Joel an entirely different and nowhere near as likeable character. There was never a world that existed where TLOU was a massively popular IP that revolved around a Joel that was inherently a bad guy that the audience would turn on once they got to know how bad he fucked over Abby or anyone else. The game was a smash hit entirely because it was so relatable and the Joel/Ellie dynamic was father getting a second chance to save his daughter.

LiquidDeath said:

Except your whole premise is flawed. Video game Joel is in no way a bad guy. There is no action he takes in the first game that is not entirely justifiable based on the post-apocalyptic world and the information he has available at the time. All attempts to cast his rescue of Ellie as anything other than heroic have been met with complete disdain by the audience, so it is absolutely no surprise that giant faggot Druckman would water down his TV show character and attempt it again. Amazingly, even turning Joel into an ultra cuck in the show couldn't change the fact that murdering every single person involved in kidnapping and trying to hurt his adoptive daughter in the most brutal way possible is still seen by most people as entirely justified at least and better than they all deserved in most cases.

If they wanted to tell the story you described, they would have had to make Joel an entirely different and nowhere near as likeable character. There was never a world that existed where TLOU was a massively popular IP that revolved around a Joel that was inherently a bad guy that the audience would turn on once they got to know how bad he fucked over Abby or anyone else. The game was a smash hit entirely because it was so relatable and the Joel/Ellie dynamic was father getting a second chance to save his daughter.

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Well much like the show the game told us he was. He was a smuggler that did things his way to get what he wanted. He didn't want the responsibility of Ellie, but felt guilted into it as a dying wish and over the game became a good guy. This is obviously told better in the show to a degree but his experience on the road was directly related to shit he did in the past.

He was a guy going through the motions after he "died" when his kid did and was doing something only to benefit himself even when he knew Ellie was immune and maybe in some fantasy she could be the key to save everyone. Weather it was true or not didnt matter, he didnt care, he figured it was not and was transporting her at first for selfish means. The entire point of the first game was showing him becoming human again in a world without humanity. I dont need to see him killing an innocent kid or something to know he wasn't a knight in shining armor at the start of the game or show, it was obvious based on his actions.

The show Joel knew why Abbey was going to kill him and he was focused on keeping Dina alive. There are no words or explanation that he could give to Abbey to save himself. He committed a monstrous act never knowing weather a cure was real or not cause Ellie was his kid in the end. Yes any father would do the same, but the understanding can still be there. Abbey taking revenge cause he killed her dad makes total sense in his mind, all he wanted was to make sure those he loved survived and he didnt fight back in the show.

Franlky having opposing view points and both are true to some degree says something to the strength of the story. Yes the game didnt handle it right. Yes the show is handling it better just even changing who was there when Joel dies and why he dies. Whats coming to the people who did it is deserved, and thats the hard part. Theres no winners in this world, and to me thats ok.

In the ambush scene Joel admits to being on the other side of one, that’s how he knew he and Ellie were about to be ambushed.

In the game Joels character killed a lot of people to become a hardened survivor.

This is a weird conversation. The entirety of the *real-time* story of TLoU was Joel's redemption arc. He was not a good guy before he meets Ellie. He's a fairly ruthless smuggler and Ellie is something he was originally "hired" to smuggle.

Sure, but the whole idea behind Joel being a bad guy only works if we ridiculously hold his actions to the moral standards of current day progressives. It's why the story Druckman wanted to tell is wholesale rejected by fans. Setting up a brutal, zombie-infested post-apocalyptic world and then telling me to think a dude, who lost his family and then did what he had to do to survive and protect his loved ones, is a bad guy is asinine. What the fuck even is smuggling in the kind of world the audience is presented?

The average player didn't take this as a redemption arc for a bad guy, but rather the redemption of a father not able to protect his daughter. It isn't about him going from bad to good, but from being an aimless shell of a person wracked with the pain of loss regaining his life as a father who will do everything in his power to ensure he doesn't lose another child.

LiquidDeath said:

Sure, but the whole idea behind Joel being a bad guy only works if we ridiculously hold his actions to the moral standards of current day progressives. It's why the story Druckman wanted to tell is wholesale rejected by fans. Setting up a brutal, zombie-infested post-apocalyptic world and then telling me to think a dude, who lost his family and then did what he had to do to survive and protect his loved ones, is a bad guy is asinine. What the fuck even is smuggling in the kind of world the audience is presented?

The average player didn't take this as a redemption arc for a bad guy, but rather the redemption of a father not able to protect his daughter. It isn't about him going from bad to good, but from being an aimless shell of a person wracked with the pain of loss regaining his life as a father who will do everything in his power to ensure he doesn't lose another child.

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Yea those god damn progressives and not being okay with pretending you are hurt to ambush groups of people, rob them and kill them. Even at the start his reputation is one to not be trusted but Marlene had no choice and hoped Tess would keep him on mission

He. Was. Not. A. Good. Dude.

Neither was Tommy
Neither was Tess

Hell did we not figure this out with Bill? Thats like the entire point of his character.

Tess got her redemption in the first game when she died and convinced Joel to do the right thing for the first time in 20 years. Tommy got his when he got away from Joel and fell in in Jackson and helped others unlike what Joel had him doing.

Joel suuuuuuuuucked, and I dont think you have played or payed attention to this story at all

Seems he wasn't really paying attention to the actually quite good story in TLoU1 if he's asking stupid questions like "What the fuck even is smuggling in the kind of world the audience is presented?" The entire first act in the game explains this pretty clearly.

Khane said:

This is a weird conversation. The entirety of the *real-time* story of TLoU was Joel's redemption arc. He was not a good guy before he meets Ellie. He's a fairly ruthless smuggler and Ellie is something he was originally "hired" to smuggle.

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Yea IDK why people thought he was good at all.

Rajaah said:

Ep 2? Yeah more or less the same reaction here.

It was a pretty incredible episode for the first 80-90%. The battle between the Wyoming town and the horde of mountain infected was like something out of Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings. The kind of thing I wanted to see Walking Dead do more of and even they never really amped things up to this scale. Was legit concerned for Tommy. The exploding barrels were nuts. I knew they were prepared for an attack, but not THAT prepared. They were ready to repel an army, and it's a good thing because an actual army attacked them.

Then we get to the last few minutes, where Joel gets rewarded for his kindness by gettin' murdered. It was drawn-out and mean-spirited, like that part in the game, and also made me want to stop watching. Like I suddenly don't care anymore what else goes on. Weird how that works.

Abby's casting went too far in the opposite direction, where instead of being an unbelievably-proportioned she-hulk, she's now a tiny waif who is unbelievable as a hard leader of a bunch of people who tower over her and yet do whatever she says.

Was also frustrating how Joel didn't even attempt to talk his way out of it. Just a basic "look, I only did that to rescue an innocent girl they were going to kill / experiment on, and you would have done the same thing if you had to" or something. Nope, instead he basically just grunts and metaphorically flips them off and tells them to get it over with.

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Abbey sucking is something I don't think alot of the sidelines knew from Part 2. The game wasn't played, the meme's were being had and the point was lost. She sucked, she was mean, she had an attitude problem like Ellie, and she thought she was more important and better then she was. The other people with her were not following her so much cause she was a leader, they are there cause she is their friend, they are only there to help her friend kill the dude that killed Abbeys dad and don't want to hurt anyone else. Owen was ready to pack it in cause they are not soldiers, they got lucky. Ellie is absolutely 100% better at killing, tactics, strategy even with Abbey as She Hulk, and has all the justification in the world and we are about to see what all of that is worth when blind rage comes into play.

To do another lesson in Media Literacy....

Contrast Catherine O'Hara and Abbey regarding Joel's actions. Gail, KNOWING, Joel was justified still hated him and wanted him gone or dead or away, and was experienced at helping heal souls and couldn't heal her own. What do you think Abbey is going to do.