The Tanoubliette: Pussy Hurt and Delusions or TTPHAD for short.
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Nirgon
Log Wizard
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And exactly my point
Tanoomba doesn't have to hang on her every word or defend her to make his(?) point
For instance: he can go on with his stance without defending every single thing she does and probably get a little more respect and consideration from people listening. Also if given the money, I'm sure he'd do more with it than she would... and that's kind of the real crime here. Time and money going to waste over something ultimately pointless that is dividing people.
Tanoomba doesn't have to hang on her every word or defend her to make his(?) point
For instance: he can go on with his stance without defending every single thing she does and probably get a little more respect and consideration from people listening. Also if given the money, I'm sure he'd do more with it than she would... and that's kind of the real crime here. Time and money going to waste over something ultimately pointless that is dividing people.
Tanoomba
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Nirg: "Tanoomba doesn't have to hang on her every word or defend her to make his(?) point
For instance: he can go on with his stance without defending every single thing she does and probably get a little more respect and consideration from people listening. Also if given the money, I'm sure he'd do more with it than she would... and that's kind of the real crime here. Time and money going to waste over something ultimately pointless that is dividing people."
I have NEVER "hung on to her every word". I have criticized what she says on more than one occasion. Heck, I just pointed out that she doesn't understand that not every person who attacks her personally is a misogynist (they're usually just assholes). However, because my stance is "It's fucking stupid and counterproductive to push the 'liar, fraud and con artist' narrative when there are better and more effective ways to criticize her", those who DO push this narrative have decided that I'm "defending every single thing she does". When bubbles get threatened, actual information gets ignored and new, flawed information gets added, as you have just demonstrated.
Just so you know, though, you are not the arbiter of what topics are "pointless" for people to put effort into discussing. If your stance is "Who cares? This is stupid!" then clearly YOU should be putting your efforts into a conversation you consider more worthy of YOUR time.
For instance: he can go on with his stance without defending every single thing she does and probably get a little more respect and consideration from people listening. Also if given the money, I'm sure he'd do more with it than she would... and that's kind of the real crime here. Time and money going to waste over something ultimately pointless that is dividing people."
I have NEVER "hung on to her every word". I have criticized what she says on more than one occasion. Heck, I just pointed out that she doesn't understand that not every person who attacks her personally is a misogynist (they're usually just assholes). However, because my stance is "It's fucking stupid and counterproductive to push the 'liar, fraud and con artist' narrative when there are better and more effective ways to criticize her", those who DO push this narrative have decided that I'm "defending every single thing she does". When bubbles get threatened, actual information gets ignored and new, flawed information gets added, as you have just demonstrated.
Just so you know, though, you are not the arbiter of what topics are "pointless" for people to put effort into discussing. If your stance is "Who cares? This is stupid!" then clearly YOU should be putting your efforts into a conversation you consider more worthy of YOUR time.
Frenzied Wombat
Potato del Grande
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Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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Nirgon: "Well if its not pointless then what's the desired end result? If she gets her way what is the real benefit?
Toys don't involve sexy women at all? Toys portray women more realistically?
What is that going to do for us?"
Her goal seems to be to get gamers and developers to think more critically about how women are portrayed in video games. If you're asking what the real-world benefits are for us (and I'm going to assume you're dismissing Sarkeesian's suggestion that how women are portrayed in media can have an effect on how they are perceived and treated IRL), I imagine it's seeing more imaginative video games that rely less on clich?s.
But again, even if you feel that there's no benefit at all to even discussing the topic, I hope you can understand that not everybody feels that way. Sarkeesian is genuinely bothered by how women are commonly portrayed in video games. She believes these portrayals contribute to real world negative consequences. She wants to talk about it and get her concerns out there so that, at the very least, people will THINK about these tropes instead of just taking them for granted and assuming them as the "norm". You are entirely entitled to dismiss ALL of that as hogwash, but just because you apparently think anything short of calling for censorship is "pointless", doesn't make it so. You're not going to convince people who care about something that their investment in the subject is unwarranted. If you truly believe it's a pointless conversation, then bow out and go talk about something YOU give a shit about.
Toys don't involve sexy women at all? Toys portray women more realistically?
What is that going to do for us?"
Her goal seems to be to get gamers and developers to think more critically about how women are portrayed in video games. If you're asking what the real-world benefits are for us (and I'm going to assume you're dismissing Sarkeesian's suggestion that how women are portrayed in media can have an effect on how they are perceived and treated IRL), I imagine it's seeing more imaginative video games that rely less on clich?s.
But again, even if you feel that there's no benefit at all to even discussing the topic, I hope you can understand that not everybody feels that way. Sarkeesian is genuinely bothered by how women are commonly portrayed in video games. She believes these portrayals contribute to real world negative consequences. She wants to talk about it and get her concerns out there so that, at the very least, people will THINK about these tropes instead of just taking them for granted and assuming them as the "norm". You are entirely entitled to dismiss ALL of that as hogwash, but just because you apparently think anything short of calling for censorship is "pointless", doesn't make it so. You're not going to convince people who care about something that their investment in the subject is unwarranted. If you truly believe it's a pointless conversation, then bow out and go talk about something YOU give a shit about.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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You're struggling to see the benefits because she hasn't articulated any benefits. She hasn't pointed to any studies showing relationship between women's portrayal in media and attitudes/actions towards women in real life. She hasn't shown any link between the rise in gaming popularity and any rise in sexist attitudes, or violence against women. She hasn't shown how certain popular stereotypes of feminitnity reduce the happiness or actualization of women. *shrug*
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
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Big Nirgs, It cant be bitching because that would be a misogynist slur. Not a catch all term to describe bitching and moaning.
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She provides no context for her complaints, no evidence for her conclusions, and no solutions to the supposed problem. So yes, its literally just bitching. In non-problematic language, we now call this "raising awareness".
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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Citation needed, I think? I mean I seem to remember something back when all this took off and she initially had not cited anything. Then finally when she did it was a lot of circular self references, blog posts, and other non-scholarly 'research.' Unless something has come out, and I'm fully admitting to not having any clue.
On an unrelated note, I was using my wife's old college email address to sign up for my Best Buy discount and she is/was subscribed to the American Psychological Association PsychNET newsletter. Two of the recent submissions for studies caught my eye, which is hard to quote to here in the Rickshaw:
Sexual Assault on Campuses: A 50-state survey of criminal sexual assault statutes and their relevance to campus sexual assault.
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&id=BD27D451-AC8A-7B84-E823-85BA8C96170C&resultID=10&page=1&dbTab=pa&search=tr ue
Do Sex and Violence Sell? A Meta-Analytic Review of the Effects of Sexual and Violent Media and Ad Content on Memory, Attitudes, and Buying Intentions.
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&id=BD27D451-AC8A-7B84-E823-85BA8C96170C&resultID=71&page=1&dbTab=pa&search=tr ue
Abstracts available at the link. Didn't ask the wife to d/l the whole study.
On an unrelated note, I was using my wife's old college email address to sign up for my Best Buy discount and she is/was subscribed to the American Psychological Association PsychNET newsletter. Two of the recent submissions for studies caught my eye, which is hard to quote to here in the Rickshaw:
Sexual Assault on Campuses: A 50-state survey of criminal sexual assault statutes and their relevance to campus sexual assault.
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&id=BD27D451-AC8A-7B84-E823-85BA8C96170C&resultID=10&page=1&dbTab=pa&search=tr ue
Do Sex and Violence Sell? A Meta-Analytic Review of the Effects of Sexual and Violent Media and Ad Content on Memory, Attitudes, and Buying Intentions.
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&id=BD27D451-AC8A-7B84-E823-85BA8C96170C&resultID=71&page=1&dbTab=pa&search=tr ue
Abstracts available at the link. Didn't ask the wife to d/l the whole study.
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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Quaid: "Can someone please explain why fantasy can't be fantastical?
Please?"
Relax, Quaid. Take a deep breath. Fantasy absolutely still can be fantastical. No one's destroying your fantasy, and whatever fantasies you currently enjoy will continue to be available to you most likely indefinitely.
Also, do you understand that those photoshops came from bulimia.com? That's a web site dedicated to helping people who suffer from eating disorders. Do you not think they have reason to address a factor that contributes to people developing bulimia and anorexia? Their priority is treating and preventing eating disorders, not ensuring guys can masturbate to video game characters. "Oh, Christ, NO!!! Somebody suggested video game characters should have more realistic proportions... How is life worth living any more?" Talk about your busybodyism. Jesus Christ.
Please?"
Relax, Quaid. Take a deep breath. Fantasy absolutely still can be fantastical. No one's destroying your fantasy, and whatever fantasies you currently enjoy will continue to be available to you most likely indefinitely.
Also, do you understand that those photoshops came from bulimia.com? That's a web site dedicated to helping people who suffer from eating disorders. Do you not think they have reason to address a factor that contributes to people developing bulimia and anorexia? Their priority is treating and preventing eating disorders, not ensuring guys can masturbate to video game characters. "Oh, Christ, NO!!! Somebody suggested video game characters should have more realistic proportions... How is life worth living any more?" Talk about your busybodyism. Jesus Christ.
Tanoomba
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Intrinsic: "Citation needed, I think?"
Attitudes on sexual harassment and sexual portrayals of video game characters (Dill et al., 2008)
https://vgresearcher.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/attitudes-on-sexual-harassment-and-sexual-portrayals-of-video-game-characters-dill-et-al-2008/
Sexualized avatars affect the real world, Stanford researchers find
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/virtual-female-avatars-100913.html
Objectification leads to depersonalization: The denial of mind and moral concern to objectified others.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nick_Haslam/publication/229920077_Objectification_leads_to_depersonalizati on_The_denial_of_mind_and_moral_concern_to_objecti fied_others/links/02e7e5253cf290b078000000.pdf
These aren't, in and of themselves, conclusive evidence of what Sarkeesian suggests. Some of the methodology may not be perfect or it may not explicitly link to video games, but at the very least it shows that Sark's theories are extrapolated from real-world research. You can say that those studies don't come to the conclusions as stated by her, but they do show that her conclusions are, at the very least, feasible according to what we do know. Maybe we can learn more as more studies get done that tackle the subject with more specificity.
Attitudes on sexual harassment and sexual portrayals of video game characters (Dill et al., 2008)
https://vgresearcher.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/attitudes-on-sexual-harassment-and-sexual-portrayals-of-video-game-characters-dill-et-al-2008/
Sexualized avatars affect the real world, Stanford researchers find
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/virtual-female-avatars-100913.html
Objectification leads to depersonalization: The denial of mind and moral concern to objectified others.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nick_Haslam/publication/229920077_Objectification_leads_to_depersonalizati on_The_denial_of_mind_and_moral_concern_to_objecti fied_others/links/02e7e5253cf290b078000000.pdf
These aren't, in and of themselves, conclusive evidence of what Sarkeesian suggests. Some of the methodology may not be perfect or it may not explicitly link to video games, but at the very least it shows that Sark's theories are extrapolated from real-world research. You can say that those studies don't come to the conclusions as stated by her, but they do show that her conclusions are, at the very least, feasible according to what we do know. Maybe we can learn more as more studies get done that tackle the subject with more specificity.
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
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The entire concept seems to be a tad tone deaf. Some of them seemed like they do not understand that these are mostly artistic license. Others are not made by our culture at all. And some have been done better. We are not debating the merits of a bulimia awareness website to address bulimia in a way the "kids" may understand. It's not "busybodydom". It's a thought that this particular idea of what results in what I am going to describe as " fattening up art" is a waste of time and money they could use in talking to users about other more prevalent issues in advertising. Such as purchasing and releasing non airbrushed or photoshopped pictures of real people. Examiningand explaining things like Men's Fitness and even showing people classical art to see how beauty standards have morphed and changed over the centuries. If you were wanting to show art. They could Accentuate positives in culture.
But since games and feminism are so entwined lately lets just show a fat Asian woman Instead of a thin Asian woman with titties.
I did like the Brazilian fighter girl one..
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Why the fuck would I play a fantasy game where everybody looked like the fatbodied middle aged women who I can see drinking OV at the local dive?
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