The Tanoubliette: Pussy Hurt and Delusions or TTPHAD for short.

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Tanoomba

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I would like to take this moment to express my sincere thanks to all the posters who have helped this thread thrive up to this point. Heck, we reached the same number of pages as Dr. Mario's own rickshaw thread, and in only a couple of months! There's no way I could have done it without you guys. You've made this modest, humble man very happy, and I appreciate all of you who continue to go out of your way to see what I have to say and engage me. Seriously. Thank you. #nohomo
 

Tanoomba

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Quaid: "I do think she intentionally misrepresented context in many of her cited game examples. For example, she fails to mention the reality of sandbox games where every NPC is vulnerable, not just sexualized females. To those not well versed in the realities of digital worlds, this point would not be clear, and she failed to clarify it. That's why I feel she misrepresented games like Hitman. What was her motivation to do this? There are SO MANY examples to use of 'women as sexualized background decoration' without her preposterous dragging corpses around in Hitman stunt. Did you play Witcher 3 for fucks sake? Some of the most detailed and engaging set pieces were the fucking whore houses."

See, if your point is "She should have mentioned that all NPCs are vulnerable to establish the context of how sandbox games work", I can say that's an entirely valid point. But when you say you think she's intentionally misrepresenting context, I think you're projecting your own biased interpretation of her work, basically because that's not the only way (or even the most likely way) to interpret it. Maybe she didn't feel the fact that you can kill all NPCs was relevant when referring to a specific trope focused on sexualized females. Maybe she could technically have gone into more detail about many other contextual points but was restricted by a desire to keep the video a reasonable length. Maybe she incorrectly assumed the fact that all NPCs can be killed was either common knowledge or made clear implicitly through other game footage she used. I'm not trying to make excuses for her, I'm just saying that "She intentionally misrepresented the game" is but one of several possibilities, and if you can't prove that was her intention (and let's face it, we can't), then the best we can do is say where we believe her to be wrong and to back it up as well as we can.

And let's be honest here, if she hadn't changed a word of that schpiel but instead used some YouTube footage of a guy gleefully killing hookers in GTA while staring at their asses and making immature sexist comments (footage which is not difficult to find), she would have been accused of "cherry-picking" and of taking one player's actions as representative of many and ignoring all the people who don't play the game that way, etc, etc. So "Why Hitman?" is only a valid question if she wouldn't have been equally torn apart for any other game featuring the trope, which she likely would have.


Quaid: "Perhaps I'm giving her too much credit, but I think she knew exactly what the gamer reaction would be to her work. I think she knows damn well that a lot of gamers are children, neuro atypical, socially maladjusted, and marginalized."

Now you sound like Leigh Alexander. Just kidding!

Ummmm... No, though. That wasn't "the gamer reaction". I'm a gamer. I know plenty of gamers who still haven't even heard of Sarkeesian and/or don't give a shit about anything she's ever said. If you're trying to say she knew what "the asshole reaction" would be, and that gamers contain a disproportionate number of assholes, well, I guess that's a little offensive but, for all we know, that might also be true.
 

Quaid

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I'm not willing to label everyone who had a strongly negative and vocal reaction to the tropes series as an asshole.

If there's one thing gamers like, as we all can attest to, it's being right on the Internet. Her work was flawed and gamers gleefully, and perhaps overzeaously in many cases, pointed that out. It had nothing to do with her gender in most cases. Yes, if you use accusatory language against a massive and passionate audience, you will receive all kinds of backlash. In every large population there will be racists, misogynists, homophobes etc. and it is unsurprising that she received blowback with those undertones. I'd even venture to say that a large part of the sexist/racist remarks directed at her didn't actually come from racists or misogynists. An anonymous troll's mission after all is to do you emotional harm, and they will use all their available tools to achieve this. Your outward appearance is low hanging fruit.
 

Tanoomba

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"Accusatory language" is not objective.
"Those undertones" is not objective.

Your justification of the overzealous, strongly negative and vocal reaction is based on people CHOOSING to take something personally that was never meant to be personal. I watched the same videos, which were recommended by friends who are also gamers. None of us for a second even considered that she was using "accusatory language". Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, and if some gamers like to "be right on the internet", they will misinterpret, redefine words, undergo mental gymnastics and otherwise turn the world upside-down in order to portray their opponent as "wrong". They realized that "pop critic makes questionable statement in analysis" doesn't allow them to get all hot and bothered the same way "liar, fraud and con artist accuses developers and gamers of being sick perverts" does, so they went with that narrative. It's dishonest and, worse, it's exactly the type of manipulative "feels before facts" bullshit they gleefully accuse SJWs of ALL THE TIME.
 

Tanoomba

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Doc: "lol she literally accuses developers of specifically designing their games for players to act out misogynistic sexual control fantasies. The players are "meant" to do it. They "cannot help" but do it."

All players? No. Players? Oh, yeah.
And if the developers know this (and we have every reason to believe they do), then yeah, they're implicit in catering to that audience. How is that "accusatory"? Nobody's been wronged, no law was broken, no one was hurt.
Is "The American Pie movies include tits to appeal to horny teenage males" an accusatory statement? Seems to me like it's more of an explanatory statement, since we know that horny teenage males love tits and we know the movies are aimed at them.

We also know that lots of gamers DO derive a perverse pleasure from killing sexualized representations of women and desecrating their bodies (they have made zero effort to keep this a secret and, frankly, they have no reason to), so when you've got a generous number of games that give them the opportunity to do just that, it doesn't take a huge stretch of imagination to realize it's not just an accident or a coincidence. That certainly doesn't mean Sarkeesian is passing judgment on these developers OR the players. It just means it's a trend that she believes to be problematic and has made efforts to explain why.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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"All players? No. Players? Oh, yeah.
And if the developers know this (and we have every reason to believe they do), then yeah, they're implicit in catering to that audience. How is that "accusatory"?"

By literally being an accusation of mal-intent.

"That certainly doesn't mean Sarkeesian is passing judgment on these developers OR the players."

Yeah ok.

"It just means it's a trend that she believes to be problematic"

Literally her passing judgement.
 

Tanoomba

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Doc: "By literally being an accusation of mal-intent."

What's the mal-intent?
 

Tanoomba

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Old (2011) article by a film critic about sexism in Batman: Arkham City.

GODDAMMIT VIDEO GAMES: THE FIRST FEW HOURS OF ARKHAM CITY IS LOTS OF FUN, BUT SUPER-DUPER SEXIST
https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/

I'm linking it because it covers a lot of the same ground that Sarkeesian does in her videos. This critic, despite articulating his points arguably better than Sarkeesian, literally says the developers ought to be ashamed of themselves. But the best part is here:

HULK VS. ARKHAM CITY ? ROUND 2: BITCHES BE TRIPPIN?!
https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/

...Where he addresses the most common counter-arguments that come up whenever someone talks about sexism in video games. Very good stuff.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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Old (2011) article by a film critic about sexism in Batman: Arkham City.

GODDAMMIT VIDEO GAMES: THE FIRST FEW HOURS OF ARKHAM CITY IS LOTS OF FUN, BUT SUPER-DUPER SEXIST
https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/

I'm linking it because it covers a lot of the same ground that Sarkeesian does in her videos. This critic, despite articulating his points arguably better than Sarkeesian, literally says the developers ought to be ashamed of themselves. But the best part is here:

HULK VS. ARKHAM CITY - ROUND 2: BITCHES BE TRIPPIN'!
https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/

...Where he addresses the most common counter-arguments that come up whenever someone talks about sexism in video games. Very good stuff.
Open link.
Entire post is in caps.
Close link.
 

Tanoomba

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If you're not going to respond seriously, how am I supposed to understand your point?
 

Quaid

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Hulk is so full of his own shit the whites of his eyes are brown. Disregard that dude unless you want heartburn tonight.

Tanoomba: Sorry, where was my 'confirmation bias' coming from when I watched the tropes series? What predetermined notion was I going into those videos with? I watched that video from an article linked on Polygon before I knew who Anita Sarkeesian was, or what #GamerGate was for that matter. I did not go into that video with 'confirmation bias'.
 

Cad

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Its pretty obvious Tanoomba is a troll when he won't even admit Anita was accusing people of things in her videos. The logic is RIGHT THERE in his post.
 

Tanoomba

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Quaid: "Sorry, where was my 'confirmation bias' coming from when I watched the tropes series? What predetermined notion was I going into those videos with? I watched that video from an article linked on Polygon before I knew who Anita Sarkeesian was, or what #GamerGate was for that matter. I did not go into that video with 'confirmation bias'."

I dunno, dude. I don't know why I watched it and got "Wow, a whole bunch of post-GTA games let you kill hookers", while you got "Wow, she didn't even mention that you can kill ALL NPCs, the liar!". But if one interpretation leads to further discourse and the productive exchange of ideas, and the other becomes a self-perpetuating justification for personal attacks, well, one of those lends itself far better to confirmation bias than the other.



Doc: "By not being intentionally obtuse."

I don't work well with sarcastic abstractions. Spell it out for me: What is the mal-intent Sarks is accusing developers of?
 

Tanoomba

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Hey, Cad, welcome back.

I'm still trying to figure out what she was supposedly accusing developers of, and whether it is something remotely worthy of offense.
 
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