Waco

Khane said:

Not sure you understand how these cults work if you think he, as the leader, would just "go to town" by himself and make it easy to arrest him. They make their followers do anything that might expose them. They don't leave. And the problem is even people who want to defect can't. They are held their against their will.

It's not like there isn't good reason that law enforcement treats cults like these with extreme prejudice. Not sure where all this bigomy talk is coming from. Is that really what some of you think was the catalyst for this? These cults are human slavery. That's why they get targeted. Not because some guy has a few wives.

These people are maniacs and cannot be reasoned with. And they will kill every one of their followers before allowing any of them to leave, and maybe even a US congressman and some cameramen and reporters. Jonestown is the reason Waco escalated the way it did.

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Congressional inquiry on it. "Mistakes were made" doesn't quite cover it. There was zero reason for the ATF to be so aggressive here. A lot of what you're describing was propaganda after the fact to cover up how badly they fucked up and win the media war that was turning against them.

When ATF faced the option of conducting a regulatory inspection or tactical operation, it chose the tactical operation. When ATF had to decide between arresting Koresh away from the Branch Davidian residence or a direct confrontation, it chose direct confrontation. ATF also decided to conduct a dynamic entry as opposed to a siege.

The ATF watched him out of his compound numerous times. They had an undercover guy regularly reporting when he could be captured. The sheriff told them he could get them regulatory entry with no need to come in strong, the people would let them look at the weapons (Which they had permits for--there was zero need to hide anything).

In fact, the ATF, by its own admission, did not have cause to enter. Its own agent told them they did not. So what did they do? They lied to get a warrant, and went in anyway.




There was zero evidence of abuse on the compound, and zero evidence of any coercion to remain. I find cults as distasteful as the next guy and I certainly think this was a cult. But if being in a cult was reason enough to roll heavy into somewhere, then we need to get the ATF into some grievance studies classes on campuses to clear house.

chaos said:

I'm not an expert on the situation. I know the fed's after action report showed that the group did indeed have a bunch of illegal weapons, which was suspected previously, and we definitely know the group's "end times" rhetoric. But it also found that yeah, he did actually go to town himself quite often, and the feds had numerous opportunities to take him alone. Would taking him alone have defused the situation? Fuck no, they'd have gone bananas. But the way it actually worked out is like worst case scenario. Maybe they would have turned into Jonestown or maybe worse, but instead their own govt set them on fire and burned children to death because the adults were suspected of crimes.

as an aside, that Jonestown stuff, there's an episode of Sword and Scale podcast that plays the tapes. Those tapes are really difficult to listen to. You can hear children screaming as the adults force them to drink the poison, mothers crying as their children die, people trying to get away, it's so bad.

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The courts didn't agree with the Feds report, actually. The weapons were legal. The cops attempted to say their permits were illegal because the weapons were used against police officers, I believe. (It went back and forth in the courts), but before the raid, the weapons were legal.

The undercover agent actually lied to get the warrant on otherwise legal weapons, and they withheld exculpatory information that showed a bunch of their suspicions were bogus and easily explained.



Like from top to bottom this was a huge clusterfuck.

ronne said:

Yea yea yea I get it, government agencies bad.

I'mm not saying tear gassing a building full of children was the right call, but if you think for a second that the outcome of all this wasn't exactly what the dude wanted when he started stockpiling weapons and brides then I don't know what to tell you.

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I actually have less of an issue with gassing the building than the ATF raid to begin with.

The FBI were just incompetent. It was clear they didn't want to kill anyone and at least had some reasonable voices among their staff, trying to act professional. The ATF though were malicious fucks that deserved to be disgraced for what they did...instead they got a raise.

lol

Clinton/Reno had final say on the standoff. Not sure what the ATF has to do with it.

ronne said:

Wait, you're on the side of the crazy fucking prophet from god that kept a harem of teenage wives?

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I'm on the side of the fucking women and children that fucking burned to death after 51 days of the government lying everytime a spokesman got in front of a camera. If that piece of shit prophet was such a danger then why the fuck didn't they take him when he actually left the compound instead instead of going in guns blazing when they knew damn well there DOZENS of women and children in there? Jesus Christ.

You don't blame Koresh when he could have let his people go and instead had them take up arms against FBI and ATF knowing that was futile? You are crazy.

joz123 said:

You don't blame Koresh when he could have let his people go and instead had them take up arms against FBI and ATF knowing that was futile? You are crazy.

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Not seeing a raid justification in this post.

Not trying to justify the raid. But when you know a raid is coming for you and you have women and children with you that can be harmed/killed from it then you need to let them go.

joz123 said:

You don't blame Koresh when he could have let his people go and instead had them take up arms against FBI and ATF knowing that was futile? You are crazy.

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Plenty of blame to go around, he was a piece of shit like I said. But murdering all those children shouldn't be an option for our government. A fucking five year standoff would have been preferable to that. Do you stand up and salute the flag when a bunch of gung ho cops do a no knock warrant at 4:30 am and end up gunning down whoever greets them with a shotgun?

Absolutely amazing people still make excuses and justifications for our corrupt government murdering its own citizens.

Supposedly the fires were started in the compound which caused most of the deaths according to the FBI. Don't know if I believe that.

TheBeagle said:

A fucking five year standoff would have been preferable to that.

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Janet and billy boy wanted PR.

Mc\/eigh later retaliated. It ultimately wasn't worth the PR.

joz123 said:

according to the FBI.

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Ya ok. Same guys that used flashbangs in rooms with young children.

joz123 said:

Supposedly the fires were started in the compound which caused most of the deaths according to the FBI. Don't know if I believe that.

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That's true, the fires were started in the compound. By the federal government.

Haven't watched the show though but I hope they show that part.

joz123 said:

Not trying to justify the raid. But when you know a raid is coming for you and you have women and children with you that can be harmed/killed from it then you need to let them go.

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So, David Koresh was a cult leader who believed he was the prophet that would lead humanity through the end times and took on a harem of preteen brides. Any criticism of the government shouldn't be interpreted as an exoneration of him. Koresh is a piece of shit, whatever happened to him wasn't bad enough for what he deserves. And yet, the government just killed all those people. Fuck crazy retards they may have been, those were fuck crazy US citizens who were denied due process and summarily executed by federal law enforcement. It's a troubling situation, with plenty of blame to go around.

chaos said:

So, David Koresh was a cult leader who believed he was the prophet that would lead humanity through the end times and took on a harem of preteen brides. Any criticism of the government shouldn't be interpreted as an exoneration of him. Koresh is a piece of shit, whatever happened to him wasn't bad enough for what he deserves. And yet, the government just killed all those people. Fuck crazy retards they may have been, those were fuck crazy US citizens who were denied due process and summarily executed by federal law enforcement. It's a troubling situation, with plenty of blame to go around.

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A 3rd of the members and fatalities involved were British citizens.

The ATF/FBI were at fault for raiding the place in the first place as they knew their operation was blown, knew the Branch Davidians would defend the compound and were armed to the teeth. If they wanted Koresh they could have just put the place under surveillance and got him down the line without too much incident, even if it was a year or two later.

Thought this show was pretty decent, Taylor Kitsch was good as Koresh.

The series seems to have a pragmatic approach to everything.

For instance, who fired first to start the entire thing off? Well, the series says that the ATF/FBI fired first, but only because there were loose dogs on the compound. That pisses me off.

Secondly, who started the fires? Well, the series says that because the ATF/FBI had cut power so many times (and then subsequently turned it back on), that the Branch Dividians had lanterns inside of the compound. Tanks + fire + illegal tear gas == not a good outcome.

goishen said:

Secondly, who started the fires? Well, the series says that because the ATF/FBI had cut power so many times (and then subsequently turned it back on), that the Branch Dividians had lanterns inside of the compound. Tanks + fire + illegal tear gas == not a good outcome.

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It's pretty well accepted they used tank rounds to blow gas shells into the compound. That's what started the fire.

The building was shelled by military hardware.

The report or inquest or whatever noted that the tear gas used was flammable under certain circumstances. They didn't really know what the situation was inside the building when they breached it with the tanks and pumped it full of gas. It could be that they were using lanterns or some kind of open flame and someone knocked something over while they were being gassed or it ignited the gas.

I don't think we'll ever know what caused the fire.