Weight Loss Thread

LiquidDeath said:

After taking a break from this thread because it was incredibly unproductive, I want to try to move it in a better direction overall.

That in mind, while I have my own opinion on statins from personal research and experience with family taking them, why would it be one of you picks for preventative medication for an otherwise healthy person?

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Probably bc thrombosis, endothel damage, infarctions and alzheimers are the root of all evil in the ER.

What is being debated is the assertion that "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"

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Everything I can find states unequivocally that insulin inhibits lipolysis, but I stated in a previous post that I don't know if thats an on-off type of inhibition or if the degree of inhibition is related to the level of insulin. I cannot, however, find anything to suggest that fat mobilization in the presence of high insulin levels happens to any useful degree. Can you? Because until you can, the data says that insulin blocks lipolysis.

This article elucidates two mechanisms by which Insulin inhibits lipolysis.


As for sleep, yes I agree that getting enough sleep is critically important to your health. Assuming you eat 2 hours prior to bed, your insulin is back to normal by the time you go to sleep (in you, a metabolically healthy individual). You probably lose the majority of your fat at night because thats the longest time your insulin is low. In a diabetic, whether eating or not, that person often has high blood sugar and high insulin even while they are sleeping, because they are so resistant to its effects. Again, Dr. Fung's statement is a general statement aimed at the general population. As far as I am aware, he does not treat athletes or amateur weightlifting fanatics with single digit body fat percentage. He is a nephrologist who treats people with metabolic disorders.

I maintain that his statement is accurate and will help the general population. I maintain that his statement is accurate for you, as well, but it should come as no surprise that healthier and more active a person is, the statement becomes less important. Michael Phelps I think said he ate close to 10,000 calories per day while he was training. Its not revolutionary to say that the better your lifestyle is, the greater the freedom you have in your diet.

If you want it simply put, you are not his target audience and I don't think his statement applies to you. That does not make a simple statement about the function of Insulin "ludicrous" though.

Another interesting study:

Two Excerpts

However, although after glucose, heart rate and insulin concentrations decreased, FFA concentrations remained below basal concentrations. This could be explained by a prolonged action of plasma insulin on the suppression of HSL. Further research will be necessary to investigate the duration of suppression of HSL by insulin after a decrease in plasma insulin concentrations.

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Not only does it suppress activity of the Lipase enzymes while insulin is high, the lipase activity doesn't restart right away. The insulin essentially halts fat mobilization for a period of time after it has returned to normal.

In conclusion, in this study we have demonstrated that the catecholamine-induced HSL activation can be overruled by insulin-mediated inhibition in healthy, insulin-sensitive volunteers. Furthermore, the suppression of FFA by insulin under physiological conditions is positively associated with fasting plasma insulin concentrations.

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Faux said:

I cannot, however, find anything to suggest that fat mobilization in the presence of high insulin levels happens to any useful degree. Can you?

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Yes. My results rofl.

Faux said:

You probably lose the majority of your fat at night because thats the longest time your insulin is low.

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Or because I'm just not eating anything - carbs, protein or fat.

See, this is you making the same "you were inadvertently fasting whilst you were asleep, which is why you lost fat" argument as Burnem

Faux said:

I maintain that his statement is accurate for you, as well,

If you want it simply put, you are not his target audience and I don't think his statement applies to you.

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GIGANTIC WHAT THE FUCK MATE

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I will point out yet again that you are now playing the same "circular retard logic" as Burnem. (and yes, my autism is being determined to get you to concede is fuelling it, but I maintain I stop as soon as you are able to concede).

And by concession I mean: admitting that blanket statements like "you can't burn fat when you constantly spike your insulin" and "I don't believe you are burning any fat at all while your insulin is high" do not apply to ME and therefore do not apply to EVERYONE

And I also hope to see in said concession no examples of you wildly and blatantly contradicting yourself in the same post like you have done just now



@Falxy-US help me out here because I'm starting to feel gas-lit by both of these two idiots.

Am I not explaining myself very well or something.

1. Both make general statements about insulin preventing fat loss
2. I argue that my results show you can spike insulin by eating 200-400g of carbs and burn fat, gain/preserve muscle and get in great shape
3. Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
4. Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
5. I ask him to retract the statement or add that it doesn't apply to everyone
6. Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
7. Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
8. WTF

The TLDR Faux

All you have to do is say "for overweight/obese/non exercising people, high carb intake is not recommended due to insulin and fat storage. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE E.G LEAN, EXERCISING INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU"

And this stops

Faux said:

Another interesting study:

Insulin Mediated Inhibition of Hormone Sensitive Lipase Activity in Vivo in Relation to Endogenous Catecholamines in Healthy Subjects

The regulation of hormone-sensitive lipase activity in vivo has not been studied in detail before. We have performed noninvasive in vivo tests to measure hormon

academic.oup.com

Two Excerpts


Not only does it suppress activity of the Lipase enzymes while insulin is high, the lipase activity doesn't restart right away. The insulin essentially halts fat mobilization for a period of time after it has returned to normal.

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Tag you’re it good luck arguing with the corky from life goes of fat burning who thinks he’s the Lebron James and the only thing he ever backs up his assertions with is pictures.

Lanx said:

i believe these comic sans quotes are supposed to trigger something

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1. Both make general statements about insulin preventing fat loss
2. I argue that my results show you can spike insulin by eating 200-400g of carbs and burn fat, gain/preserve muscle and get in great shape
3. Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
4. Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
5. I ask him to retract the statement or add that it doesn't apply to everyone
6. Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
7. Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
8. WTF

The TLDR Faux

All you have to do is say "for overweight/obese/non exercising people, high carb intake is not recommended due to insulin and fat storage. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE E.G LEAN, EXERCISING INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU"

And this stops

Burnem Wizfyre said:

Tag you’re it good luck arguing with the corky from life goes of fat burning who thinks he’s the Lebron James and the only thing he ever backs up his assertions with is pictures.

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REAL WORLD ACTUAL RESULTS (Backed up my corresponding weight logs, MFP logs and DEXA SCANS)

LOL

Falxy-US said:

Yes, I am aware that there is research that suggests diet sodas containing sweeteners like aspartame may elicit (not illicit ) a small insulin response through pathways that are still under investigation. But it's super minimal. There is even insulin released during the cephalic phase of digestion. But I don't follow your diet! I calorie restrict where I can, and I work out hard because I have different goals and things that I love. I'm also aware of the research that suggests diet drinks lead to weight gain, but we know that drinking a diet coke itself doesn't directly make you fat, but has indirect effects that can lead to weight gain (ie, eliciting a stress response producing cortisol, etc, etc). However, if I'm going out to eat, and I know I'm already having a steak, sauce, etc, and no desert, the diet coke saves hundreds of calories per meal, and I prefer the taste. I do think part of your bro science is having to be as extreme as possible (ONLY DRINK WATER COFFEE AND VINGEGAR!) because being more extreme makes it easier to believe.

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This is one of my rides, I show this one because it was my first time going for 100 miles, not super fast, but still a hell of a ride. My heart rate monitor estimated 5,719 calories, but I believe that (total work) is a better 1:1 indicator at 3,071 calories burned. I couldn't keep up with fluids and lost multiple pounds in one ride. The last 20 miles were very difficult and I was almost at exhaustion, where even riding slow had my heart rate pegged. I had to bring numerous carbohydrates with me, I stopped once for a snickers (it's actually an amazing energy device), because people who workout need energy and carbohydrates and you can't fast your way through activities like this.

My point is that we all have different goals. I think your diet works well for you because of your life style. But I would never be able to follow it. There are multiple pathways to health. And I am genuinely happy you got off DM2 meds and was able to lose so much weight.

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And here I was feeling pretty good about an average output of 158 W for 60 minutes. Jesus fuck mate.

I can't think of a way to make this easier for you to understand.

"Your results" don't represent actual evidence that you are burning fat during insulin induced lipolysis inhibition as opposed to the very large amount of time in the rest of the day and night that your insulin is at basal levels. Evidence of that would be a blood test showing an increase in insulin along with an increase in HSL activity and FFA above basal levels. Not only do you NOT have that, I just gave you a study that shows the opposite happens. HSL activity and FFA levels decrease with increasing insulin and for a period of time after insulin is back to normal.

Could you eat Michael Phelp's diet while doing Ossoi's workout? No, you'd get fat as hell. Because we all understand that what we eat and when we eat it is heavily dependent on our health and level of activity.

Dr Fung made a very simple statement that had 2 parts:
1) Reducing refined carbohydrates and sugar reduce insulin levels
2) Reduced insulin levels facilitates weight loss (which I restated as "you don't burn fat with high insulin")

The first part is born out by research such as the insulin index that eating foods high in carbs and sugars have a positive correlation with elevated insulin levels whereas fats and proteins have a negative correlation with insulin levels. The second part is born out by countless research papers that detail insulin's suppression of mobilizing fat stores to use as energy. The one I linked a few posts back showed that the insulin suppressed it so much that FFA levels were below resting amounts for like 2 hours after insulin was normalized.

My position is that the statement is accurate when referring to you as well, but you are free to ignore it (i.e. it doesn't apply to you) because you are healthy and active.

Your body has no problem handling a bump in insulin because you are not insulin resistant or sedentary or full on diabetic. Say you eat 3 meals a day 6 hours apart. Your insulin is spiked 1-2 hours after each meal, giving you 4-5 hours of basal insulin between meals and 11 hours of basal insulin between dinner and breakfast. Is eating a higher amount of carbs going to negatively affect your otherwise healthy lifestyle? My contention is no. You are still going to burn that energy and have a significant amount of time with insulin at basal rates. Your lifestyle affords you that freedom. In the short term, you wouldn't even consider the increase in carbs unhealthy as your body has no problems handling them. In the longer term eating 200-400g of carbs per day, I don't know.

An insulin resistant person eats the exact same meals and timing. Their insulin could take 4 hours to return to normal if it gets there at all without medication, giving them 2 hours between meals and maybe 8 at night.

A severely resistant person may have next to 0 time between meals with basal insulin and maybe only 2-3 hours of a true fasted state at night. That 2-3 hours at night may be the only access to fat stores that person has whereas you have at least 18 hours.

Before those people can eat like you do, they have to mitigate the underlying metabolic disease and sensitize themselves to insulin again. His statement is aimed at those people as a way to start reducing their insulin resistance and make weight loss possible, not to tell Ossoi to cut more carbs out of his diet to achieve 4% body fat.

Faux said:

My position is that the statement is accurate when referring to you as well, but you are free to ignore it (i.e. it doesn't apply to you) because you are healthy and active.

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Jesus fucking christ, I'm sorry everyone but this guy is still not getting it:

My position is that the statement is accurate when referring to you as well, but you are free to ignore it (i.e. it doesn't apply to you) because you are healthy and active.

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You can surely see what he's doing right - simultaneously claiming the statement is accurate but doesn't apply to me? So how can the statement be accurate, if it doesn't apply to me (and to others like me)

The reason I'm putting everything in a paint image is was to highlight the circular nature of Burnems contradictions, and now how Faux is also contradicting himself in every reply.


For the sake of getting this to stop, I won't address the rest of his post (even though it was riddled with falsehoods and inaccuracies.

I will point out to you though Faux this has never been about the specifics of what Fungus has said, but the statements you and Burnem have made. To me, it's bewildering that I copy/paste your own words onto a Comic Sans paint document yet for some reason you're now citing Fungus because you think it's his statements I'm addressing and not your own?

I literally spelt it out for Lanx , tagging you in every relevant section and you still don't get it? Really?

1. Both make general statements about insulin preventing fat loss
2. I argue that my results show you can spike insulin by eating 200-400g of carbs and burn fat, gain/preserve muscle and get in great shape
3. Faux Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
4. Faux Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
5. I ask him to retract the statement or add that it doesn't apply to everyone
6. Faux Faux doubles down on the statement "you don't lose fat if your insulin is high"
7. Faux Faux then says it doesn't apply to "cases like" me
8. WTF

All you have to do is say "for overweight/obese/non exercising people, high carb intake is not recommended due to insulin and fat storage. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE E.G LEAN, EXERCISING INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU"

So you still maintain that you are mobilizing and burning fat in the presence of insulin induced lipolysis inhibition?

Thats what you are disagreeing with? My statement that you aren't burning fat when your insulin is high?

Denamian said:

That is literally what he just fucking said in his last post.

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He's saying it doesn't apply to me whilst continuing to claim the statement is still accurate. It's the literal equivalent of making a promise with your fingers crossed behind your back.

I'll concede that I should have phrased that concession demand better

Faux said:

So you still maintain that you are mobilizing and burning fat in the presence of insulin induced lipolysis inhibition?

Thats what you are disagreeing with? My statement that you aren't burning fat when you high insulin is high?

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No, you answer the fucking question in red.

The statement cannot simultaneously be accurate and not apply to me. Pick one

Ossoi said:

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He's saying it doesn't apply to me whilst continuing to claim the statement is still accurate. It's the literal equivalent of making a promise with your fingers crossed behind your back

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What I am saying is that the statement is accurate that refined carbohydrates and sugars cause elevated insulin responses (as borne out by the science) and that insulin is the gatekeeper to access energy stored as fat (as borne out by the science). That is true for you, its true for me, its true for a morbidly obese diabetic.

Despite being accurate for you, the value of the statement is close to fucking zero (thats what I mean by doesn't apply) to you and every active metabolically healthy patient because you have no problem with access to fat stores. Despite being true, who gives a shit if you go from 98% access to 99% access. Its true and with high value to a person with insulin resistance who may go from 2% access to fat stores up to 30% access by fasting and reducing their carb and sugar intake to reduce their insulin resistance.

Which of those 2 groups is that statement aimed at?