Well, now what?

Sadre Spinegnawer

Sadre Spinegnawer

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gshurik said:
People grew up, and the medium tried to do that too.

I mean I know for a fact I have no-where near enough time to farm a single item for literally months at a time anymore. I spent so much time just preparing to farm in XI, and as much as I fucking love XI, I could never go back.

The medium evolved by making faster paced experiences for people with less time in order to try to maintain the same group of players, but sadly that doesn't exactly equate to a quality MMORPG normally.

I do think that XIV is the best MMO out there right now, for the simple fact that you can obsess over it for a few months and then take a break for a year until you obsess over it again with all the new content.
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I remember, back when I played hardcore, first eq1 then eq2 (I got off the SOE wheel when eq2 phased out contested mobs), I would enjoy pick-up groups. But it was always a reality check. I was used to grinding and playing till near dawn if needed. But in pick-up groups, people had different priorities. I remember trying to be ultra-cool to people who played maybe one instance a night, or who only clocked a few hours grinding aa's.

During those years, both eq1 and eq2 were "big enough" games so that both kinds of players could still have fun. I would join a group during the eq1 years with me in BiS gear, but there was still lots of content for other style players, and I frankly enjoyed playing with "filthy casuals." Sure, you might get a wipe or two, but so what?

I think players have changed so much, that a developer is trapped. The key is to make a game where casuals can still have fun, but not so easy that you end up with this major traffic jam at end content that hardcore players can reach <month.

Devs need to make this clear though. We need a design philosophy that states, this game is built for fun for casuals, but if you want to go further in the game, it is going to be hard as fuck to do so.

I think the mistake is, devs ar trying to design *one* game, to please all, when in fact there are at least two kinds of gamers, and so a game has to figure out how to blend them together. Casuals will get pissed off if it starts to feel like a game is just trying to get you to go for the end content (that they might not be able to reach) and hardcore will get pissed off if things are so easy you can devour the content in a month.

edit: guilds in eq1 and 2 helped on this matter. There were casual guilds, and there were hardcore guilds. I think the guild element is crucial to solving the issue. Casual guilds and hardcore guilds should both be able to have fun in a well-designed game.
 
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Elidroth

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There is no way to adequately develop content fast enough to satisfy the hardcore 'race to the end' people. They just consume it WAY too quickly. Actually that's not true.. you CAN procedurally create it, but then it feels numbers generated, and not hand-crafted. Me personally, I'd just say 'this game is hard. deal with it', and then embrace the fact that you're going to be a niche game.. The problem is when the developers try to cater to the complaints of the less-capable players instead of just saying, "maybe you'll be strong enough to tackle this content later".

My opinion.. It's time for a Demon's Souls level of hard in an MMO, and tell players who whine about it to just suck it up and play. Sink or fucking swim time.
 
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Chris

Chris

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Elidroth said:
There is no way to adequately develop content fast enough to satisfy the hardcore 'race to the end' people.
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You can. Look at mobile games. Look at Fortnite. It's about developing the game systems and art assets in a way to make it possible.
 
Locnar

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I'm going to go way back in time, to the mid 80s and the dawn of the first online RPGs, Island of Kesmai for a idea. They had what was called the basic game and the advanced game, separated by a ONE WAY portal. So when your toon got so high level and tricked out in best in slot you could stay a big fish in a small pond or take the portal to the advanced game, never to come back.

How would that work as part of the solution?
 
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Ambiturner

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Locnar said:
I'm going to go way back in time, to the mid 80s and the dawn of the first online RPGs, Island of Kesmai for a idea. They had what was called the basic game and the advanced game, separated by a ONE WAY portal. So when your toon got so high level and tricked out in best in slot you could stay a big fish in a small pond or take the portal to the advanced game, never to come back.

How would that work as part of the solution?
Click to expand...

Doesn't address any of the problems, but besides that it sounds great!
 
Locnar

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Elidroth said:
My opinion.. It's time for a Demon's Souls level of hard in an MMO, and tell players who whine about it to just suck it up and play. Sink or fucking swim time.
Click to expand...

Some of us have been saying this since 2005, only to see the developers panic and throw out life preservers game after game after game. So sick of it.
 
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Elidroth

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Chris said:
You can. Look at mobile games. Look at Fortnite. It's about developing the game systems and art assets in a way to make it possible.
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Seriously? Fortnite is your reference for why creating enough MMO content is possible? Fortnite doesn't have content. The time required to make Fortnite's "quests" for a season could be done in about 2 days in EQ dev time. Sorry, but answers like yours just scream out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to making games.
 
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Elidroth

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If I ever win the lottery big.. I'm definitely making the game I want.. I'd love to get the EQ IP too, because I do love the lore/world that we created..

  • Small number of base classes. Fighter. Rogue. Wizard. Healer. YOU decide where to go from there.
    • Still debating an alignment system, but more like a reputation causing the world to react to you differently. Example: If you're a good guy, townspeople react better towards you, offer you discounts on supplies, etc. If you're an evil badass, maybe they won't sell to you, or will interact differently.
  • Skill system similar to UO, in that skills have to be used in order to grow. Skills that aren't used decay over time down to some base level. Maximum number of skill points possible based upon level so you can't max everything. This allows you to grow your character how YOU want to play it but requires you to make choices while at the same time allowing you to change/shift your character if you don't like where you're at now.
  • The world would be brutal. Dark Souls brutal. Unapologetically brutal. Want to succeed? Team up with people. Work together. The world would dictate where you can go. No arbitrary level restrictions on content. You either should be there, or the world/difficulty will tell you to go away.
  • Itemization would be VERY flat. Magic items would be VERY rare. Much like EQ was originally. Non-magic items would can be acquired in the world or from tradeskills, using components found out in the world. Magic items are ONLY from adventuring out in the world, and usually from rare/boss level encounters.
    • EQ had this right early on.. Somewhere along the way, player power started being handed out like candy, and it absolutely wrecked the progression in the game IMO.

Anyway.. this is just the basis for what I want to make..
 
Punko

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Elidroth said:
Itemization would be VERY flat. Magic items would be VERY rare. Much like EQ was originally.
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Itemization being flat takes away the only path of progress MMO's have offered besides leveling, it doesn't seem a model that can be sustained over time.
 
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Elidroth

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Not true. Itemization in EQ was very flat overall until around Velious.. Kunark had some stuff, but it was locked behind higher level/more difficult content. Also, I'm not saying it's 100% flat, I'm just saying the growth in items will be slow.. so content coming out tomorrow doesn't absolutely make today/yesterday's content trivial. The flatter your power progression is, the longer lasting your world content is..
 
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mkopec

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I like the skill system, I was thinking the same thing, probably wrote it here in this thread too or the other one bitching about todays mmorpgs. I would go as far to make it you dont even choose a base class, just build based around the skills you choose. Want a rougue like mage, fucking go for it. Just cap the amount of "major" skills you can take to max, or whatever. You could also have minor skills to for crafting and shit like that.

edit: here is what I wrote...

For a pve model I would like to see something like uo back in the day. Full on skill based, classless system. The more you use something you level up that skill, thus opening up new branches upon reaching certain milestones. Everyone could have, say 3-5 major skills and 3-5 minor ones. So for instance you put one point into fireball, you continue to level up the fire ball making it more powerful and at the same time opening up new paths on a skill tree to take that fireball skill and mod it, for example fireball becomes forked fireball with 3 projectiles, or it becomes a meteor, etc... This system of course would have to have some sort of balance, for example the more in magic you spec, the less weapon choices are available to you, same with armor. Maybe layer in a stat system, so that in order to have good magic skill you need tons of wiz or int, but then you cannot have so much str to wear that heavy armor, or use 2h swords efficiently, etc...

Now granted im no game designer and im sure this shit needs tons of tweaks and shit but this sounds fresht o me in todays stale mmo scene.
 
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Elidroth

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The only reason I want a base class selection option is to give a real newb level subset of abilities and direction. I agree that allowing people to go completely how they choose from day 1 is a good idea too.. It wouldn't be too hard to allow both starting styles either.
 
Ukerric

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Elidroth said:
The only reason I want a base class selection option is to give a real newb level subset of abilities and direction. I agree that allowing people to go completely how they choose from day 1 is a good idea too.. It wouldn't be too hard to allow both starting styles either.
Click to expand...
UO did that with templates. You started with a number of skills pre-raised, which shaped how well you could do something, rather than start as a blank. But you could absolutely start with a magical-oriented template and end up a melee swordsman a week later.
 
Pharone

Pharone

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Elidroth said:
The only reason I want a base class selection option is to give a real newb level subset of abilities and direction. I agree that allowing people to go completely how they choose from day 1 is a good idea too.. It wouldn't be too hard to allow both starting styles either.
Click to expand...
Why not try some of your ideas out on your own EMU server? You can have a server setup in 5 minutes, and if you know anything about databases and SQL, you can have the basics of your idea started in no time.

That's literally what I did. I got sick of modern EQ going in directions that I did not enjoy, so I created my own EQ to play around with privately. And... really. I had a blast doing it.

I always liked your work on EQ, so I would definitely be interested in playing on your server.
 
Aychamo BanBan

Aychamo BanBan

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I played WoW after a decade of not. They let you do all the raids, etc, on retard easy mode, etc. The content isn't interesting at all. I saw no reason to sit there and try to get Mythic gear just to play on progressively harder versions of the same content. And I quit. Maybe I'll try again in another decade.
 
Locnar

Locnar

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Elidroth said:
If I ever win the lottery big.. I'm definitely making the game I want.. I'd love to get the EQ IP too, because I do love the lore/world that we created..

  • Small number of base classes. Fighter. Rogue. Wizard. Healer. YOU decide where to go from there.
    • Still debating an alignment system, but more like a reputation causing the world to react to you differently. Example: If you're a good guy, townspeople react better towards you, offer you discounts on supplies, etc. If you're an evil badass, maybe they won't sell to you, or will interact differently.
  • Skill system similar to UO, in that skills have to be used in order to grow. Skills that aren't used decay over time down to some base level. Maximum number of skill points possible based upon level so you can't max everything. This allows you to grow your character how YOU want to play it but requires you to make choices while at the same time allowing you to change/shift your character if you don't like where you're at now.
  • The world would be brutal. Dark Souls brutal. Unapologetically brutal. Want to succeed? Team up with people. Work together. The world would dictate where you can go. No arbitrary level restrictions on content. You either should be there, or the world/difficulty will tell you to go away.
  • Itemization would be VERY flat. Magic items would be VERY rare. Much like EQ was originally. Non-magic items would can be acquired in the world or from tradeskills, using components found out in the world. Magic items are ONLY from adventuring out in the world, and usually from rare/boss level encounters.
    • EQ had this right early on.. Somewhere along the way, player power started being handed out like candy, and it absolutely wrecked the progression in the game IMO.
Anyway.. this is just the basis for what I want to make..
Click to expand...

The character development you are describing is basically 100 percent what Shadowbane did. You started out picking your race and "base" class and then at level 10 promoted to a sub class of your base class. You earned skill points as you leveled and could train what skills you wished that were avalible to your base class/subclass and even gain further specialized abilities you could train in based on "runes" you found in the game that added profession like additions to your class. For example: You could be a Elf, priest, crusader. Then find a special "Gladiator" rune you could apply to your character that unlocked further abilities like "absorb pain" or "first aid". Was a fantastic character advancement system.

Only thing missing was the whole PvE side of the game, which was very rudimentary. Was mostly a harsh EVE style PvP game of land/city/resource control.

Shadowbane character advancement system, pvp city/resource combined with EQ PvE and lore/faction system = the dream game.
 
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Locnar

Locnar

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Elidroth said:
Not true. Itemization in EQ was very flat overall until around Velious.. Kunark had some stuff, but it was locked behind higher level/more difficult content. Also, I'm not saying it's 100% flat, I'm just saying the growth in items will be slow.. so content coming out tomorrow doesn't absolutely make today/yesterday's content trivial. The flatter your power progression is, the longer lasting your world content is..
Click to expand...

I distinctly remember many of the "bleeding edge" raiders of classic EQ complaining heavily about itemization in Kunark. Specifically how their Cazic Thule dropped Soul Leach sword was eclipsed by the group drop-able Mace of the Shadowed Soul.

I agree though its inevitably that item power creep happens, but classic EQ did a good job with slowly introducing magic items to the players. Leveling speed messed this up later though. Who cares about your +5 hp limestone ring in Qeynos Aquducts or your Bone Bladed Claymore in Befallen when you can outlevel them in your noob yards faster then it would take to zone into Qeynos Aquducts and camp it.

You unravel one thread of the tapestry and the whole picture goes to shit.
 
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a c i d.f l y

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Ukerric said:
UO did that with templates. You started with a number of skills pre-raised, which shaped how well you could do something, rather than start as a blank. But you could absolutely start with a magical-oriented template and end up a melee swordsman a week later.
Click to expand...
Most annoying thing was macroing shit at skill cap to get points from shit you didn't need to decrease so you could hit the 7x GM. Though honestly it was more ideal to have 30 or 60 magery for teleport or portal. Writing to rune books required 60? Can't remember. Also if you were shifting between magery focus and melee focus, not an ideal method of skill gain. Wouldn't want detect intelligence on a swords focused toon, or whatever support skills boosted it. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's been a really long ass time since I've played it... Dialup, windowed mode with UOAssist, ICQ and/or mIRC in another window.
 
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Elidroth

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Locnar said:
The character development you are describing is basically 100 percent what Shadowbane did. You started out picking your race and "base" class and then at level 10 promoted to a sub class of your base class. You earned skill points as you leveled and could train what skills you wished that were avalible to your base class/subclass and even gain further specialized abilities you could train in based on "runes" you found in the game that added profession like additions to your class. For example: You could be a Elf, priest, crusader. Then find a special "Gladiator" rune you could apply to your character that unlocked further abilities like "absorb pain" or "first aid". Was a fantastic character advancement system.

Only thing missing was the whole PvE side of the game, which was very rudimentary. Was mostly a harsh EVE style PvP game of land/city/resource control.

Shadowbane character advancement system, pvp city/resource combined with EQ PvE and lore/faction system = the dream game.
Click to expand...

Nope.. I'm not talking about being given skill points that you assign. You gain points in a skill by actually using the skill.
 
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